WB/Discovery Cancellations Are Now Taking Effect! What Would You Like to See in the Future

I think (and hindsight is 20/20 of course) that regardless of the man and his views, he was the wrong choice for DC, especially at the time. Complete tonal mismatch and the move screamed copycat. Seems like WB learned their lesson and have no problem delaying movies to get them right now, instead of rushing them to the screens.

I’m not familiar with what Whedon would have done with Wonder Woman, but the Justice League behind the scenes stories told by Gadot and Fisher off putting. Seems like WB dodged a bullet.

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Supposedly the WW script was hypersexualized and as stated earlier, made WW the one needing to be saved in her own film. Add to that the reports from JL and Buffy, it really makes me glad that script was abandoned…

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I am happy to no longer have to deal with hardcore Whedonites.

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@MovieAddict

I actually said he either didn’t like or “wasn’t a fan of” virtually everything about the character. That’s all the proof I need to know he was the worst choice, and the reviews of how awful the script was prove everything I felt was justified…

Okay, fair enough.

I have no opinion one way or the other on Joss Whedon and Wonder Woman. I didn’t follow the news, and didn’t really care one way or the other.

And we’re really discussing two different things: you’re discussing whether someone is or was the right choice to direct a movie, and my original comment was about, no, I don’t think that Zack Snyder hates Superman. :smiling_face:

On Joss Whedon: I’ve never watched a single thing that he’s done because none of it interested me.

I have just done a quick search on his Wonder Woman pitch though, and…

…and I dunno, it’s something that I would have had to have seen a trailer to or something before I could judge it.

Because this is like, "Okay, let me actually see it… "

“She was a little bit like Angelina Jolie [laughs]. She sort of traveled the world. She was very powerful and very naïve about people, and the fact that she was a goddess was how I eventually found my in to her humanity and vulnerability, because she would look at us and the way we kill each other and the way we let people starve and the way the world is run and she’d just be like, None of this makes sense to me. I can’t cope with it, I can’t understand, people are insane. And ultimately her romance with Steve was about him getting her to see what it’s like not to be a goddess, what it’s like when you are weak, when you do have all these forces controlling you and there’s nothing you can do about it. That was the sort of central concept of the thing. Him teaching her humanity and her saying, OK, great, but we can still do better.”

This doesn’t sound horrible. And much more interesting to me than the Patty Jenkins movie turned out to be (for me).

It would have been interesting if Warner Bros. had actually got Angelina Jolie to play Wonder Woman – and if she actually wanted to…

She would have been a somewhat thin Wonder Woman, but she does have a screen presence, so that could have made up for any appearance issues.

(Who am I kidding, people would have hated it.) :smiling_face:



@Sean-Malloy

Well, WW84 Cheetah on the Big Screen

Yeah, they maybe shouldn’t have done that. :smiling_face:

But what do I know, I got about 45 minutes into Wonder Woman 1984 before I stopped and had enough. So Cheetah may have been okay. :smiling_face:

Seven Soldiers?

No, with Grant Morrison I really only like THE INVISIBLES, THE FILTH, SEBASTIAN O, and THE MYSTERY PLAY. That’s about it.

Their ALL-STAR SUPERMAN was just okay to me, I think. I haven’t read it since it came out, so my memory of it is a bit fuzzy. And Grant Morrison’s ACTION COMICS I was somewhat surprisingly underwhelmed by… I stopped after a couple of issues.

I remember everyone saying that DC should just give Grant Morrison Superman and get out of the way. Well, they did, and, well… they did, and, yeah. :smiling_face:



@moro

I (respectfully) don’t see eye to eye with you on a lot of things, but I agree with you here. From Hackman to Spacey to Shea to Rosenbaum to Cryer, the character’s been played so many different ways in live action. Eisenberg’s Lex Luthor was a twitchy, more psychotic version. Seemed like they were developing him into something a bit different had they continued that story, but we’ll probably never get to see where Snyder was going with him.

It’s going to be interesting to see how they do Lex Luthor next time.

I’m hoping for a Golden Age mad scientist Lex Luthor.

Give me a ACTION COMICS #23 Lex Luthor…

We haven’t had that before.

This is also why I want a period piece Superman movie, set in the 40s or whatever.

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Yeah I remember discussing this before. Personally, I welcome any Superman movie, but with all the “Superman is irrelevant” arguments out there, I think they would have to tread very carefully with a period piece.

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@moro

Yeah, true.

On the flip side, in an attempt to make him “relevant,” they may resort to having him “snap a few necks” or something. Bring him up to the times and whatnot. :smiling_face:

No, but they can do a good, modern Superman movie if they wanted to, I suppose. They just gotta find the right story.

A current day Superman movie that’s kind of “preachy” might be fun. Because it wouldn’t preach anything bad, only good stuff. :smiling_face:

Superman is kind of a fascist, but he’s a good fascist. :smiling_face:

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Told you I don’t see eye to eye with you on everything :joy:.

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Agreed!

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1st, a space traveling Lantern show with all Green Lanterns. They would travel to exotic lands and fight various Lanterns; Indigo, Yellow, Red, and Black. The cast should be diverse and :rainbow:! Also the council should be there.

2nd, a villain show unlike any drama presented. A cross between Stranger Things and NCIS where Task Force X and Lex team up to capture and re-educate villains who are either monsters or insurrectionists. Say Arkillo and Mad Hatter for example. Lex could be played by Jon Cryer and Reverse Flash Tom Cavanaugh could return to provide leadership at the Secret Lair and on the Field Respectively! Maybe in the direction of how Peacemaker was done but with a central super powered team!

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@moro

Told you I don’t see eye to eye with you on everything :joy:.

Yeah, I was going to go back and edit that out because I can’t really back it up that well.

But you had already quoted it, so I’ll just live with it. :smiling_face:

Anyway, finally read some of The Flash rumored leaks, and if true, I’m liking the one or two things they say about the Sasha Calle Supergirl.

The movie seems to a bit more complex than it needs to be. But whatever, the leaks may or may not be true. I’m liking how they’re supposedly bringing in Supergirl though. If they wanted to, they could bring in a Jon Kent in a similar way – through “Multiverse magic.”

It’s pretty cool what they look to be doing, and it’s an easy enough reset button. It’s a pretty easy way to keep what they want from the Zack Snyder movies, and get rid of what they don’t want.

And it’s a pretty seamless way to replace Henry Cavill with the Sasha Calle Supergirl, if that’s what they want to do.

I could easily live with a Sasha Calle Supergirl. It would be a fresh and new take on Superman concept. I imagine Henry Cavill Superman fans would be bummed, but what else is new – he hasn’t played the character in what, seven years now – so they would be used to it.

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I would be bummed about Kara and no Clark, especially if she does not become a red lantern with the pure awesomeness that is Guy Gardner.

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I have to agree with this too. Affleck and Keaton are my favorite Batmans. Also, being a “Super” fan, I’m excited to see Supergirl. Not sure how I feel about mashing them all together in a movie though.

I’m a Snyderverse and Henry Cavill Superman fan that would like to see him and/or the whole thing come back, but I am not up in arms about it. I’ll be happy if they do it, and if they don’t… well… hopefully Superman is in their crosshairs.

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@moro

I guess it’s been five years since Henry Cavill played Superman, not seven.

I guess I was thinking ahead. The earliest a Sasha Calle Supergirl movie would be is 2024, so that would be seven years.

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How is that possible?

This, I like

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@Sean-Malloy

How is that possible?

A “good fascist” is just a fascist that we agree with…

That old NPR article:

Superheroes are democratic ideals.

They exist to express what’s noblest about us: selflessness, sacrifice, a commitment to protect those who need protection, and to empower the powerless.

Superheroes are fascist ideals.

They exist to symbolize the notion that might equals right, that a select few should dictate the fate of the world, and that the status quo is to be protected at all costs.

Both of these things are true, and inextricably bound up with one another — but they weren’t always.

Might equals right. That’s Superman.

That’s pretty much all super-heroes. We just happen to agree with what they’re doing.

When he debuted in 1938, Superman was, briefly, a progressive icon. He sprang, after all, from the minds of two Jewish kids in Cleveland warily watching the rise of Hitler in Europe. In his first year of life, they sent their “Champion of the Oppressed” (his very first nickname, years before “Man of Steel”) after corrupt Senators, war-mongering foreign leaders, weapons merchants, and crooked stockbrokers. He purposefully razed a slum to force the city government to provide better low-income housing. (He also launched one-man crusades against slot machines, reckless drivers, and cheating college football teams, which … yeah. Guy kept busy.)

Both Captain America and Wonder Woman were created expressly to fight the Nazi threat. Literally, to fight it — to punch it right in its dumb Ratzi face.

Batman, on the other hand, spent much of his first year protecting only his city’s wealthy elite from murder plots, jewel thieves and extortion. (Also werewolves and madmen with Napoleon complexes piloting death-blimps. Comics, guys!) It took him a while to turn his attention to the kind of petty crime that afflicted the common citizen — the arrival of Robin the Boy Wonder helped him focus.

But with the advent of World War II, Superman, Batman and other costumed heroes found themselves conscripted alongside Captain America. Not to fight the Axis themselves, mind you, but to root out stateside saboteurs and urge readers to plant Victory gardens and buy war bonds.

In the process, the visual iconography of superheroes — which, comics being comics, is 50% of the formula, remember — melded with that of patriotic imagery. This continued for decades after the war, as once-progressive heroes like Superman came to symbolize bedrock Eisenhower-era American values — the American Way — in addition to notions of Truth and Justice.

And of course a lot of people still view Superman this way – to his detriment to an extent.

Jon is more the Social Justice Warrior Superman now. And I believe he’s only struck someone (been in a physical altercation) twice in 12 issues – and one of the times was when he was palling around with one of the Bat people; so you know who was the blame for starting that fight. :smiling_face:

Poppa Superman on the other hand is trapped a little. They can’t really change him too much or they run the risk of some crying that he’s being written out of character.

Yet there was always something about superheroes, and Superman in particular. He’d helped inspire the country to defeat fascism, but he looked like he did — the kind of idealized male musculature the Nazis fetishized — and he possessed “powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men.” What’s more, he used said powers and abilities against those comparatively weak and frail mortal men, if they stepped out of line. He also came from an advanced planet peopled by a — and here’s a pesky phrase that kept cropping up in Superman comics — “super-race.”

It wasn’t intended, but it was there. People noticed.

One person in particular: Dr. Fredric Wertham, who in his 1954 anti-comics screed Seduction of the Innocent, noted that Superman’s whole schtick was hurting criminals without getting hurt himself, and dubbed him an “un-American fascist” symbol. It hit a nerve.

Wertham’s crusade changed the industry completely, effectively ending crime and horror comics and shuttering many comics publishers, but the changes to superhero comics — and their fascist overtones — proved more subtle. Suddenly Superman’s powers didn’t derive from his “super-race” genetics, but from science: the rays of Earth’s yellow sun, to be specific. But Batman, who’d been deputized by Gotham’s Police Department as early as 1941, grew even chummier with the cops; most stories now began with an urgent plea for help from a worrisomely hapless Commissioner Gordon.

Yep.

Although conceived in a progressive spirit, the superhero genre’s central narrative has always been one of defending the status quo through overpowering might; in the vast majority of those cases, the one doing all that defending and overpowering is a straight white male. (This is just one of the reasons that the superhero genre, which has a knack for distilling American culture to its essence, can get a little on-the-nose, sometimes.)

More often than not, the straight white male in question has a square jaw and killer abs and holds vast amount of power but chooses not to use it to subjugate others, simply because he’s a Good Person.

Yep. Superman is a bit of a fascist. But he’s a good fascist because we just happen to agree with what he’s doing.

Which is to say: historically, the genre’s organizing principle is that the only thing keeping fascism from happening is that straight white dudes are chill.

But slowly, incrementally, as comics (and movies, and tv shows, and games, t-shirts and coffee mugs) start to fill up with more characters like Ms. Marvel (a Pakistani-American teenage girl from Jersey City), the visual iconography of superheroes, and what those superheroes mean to the culture, will force the genre to do something it has historically resisted.

It will change.

And once superheroes look different, and once the world on the comics page more closely resembles the world off of it, you will still be able to discern the low but steady drumbeat of fascism that the genre has never been able to escape.

But it will grow lower, and less steady.

You know what Warner Bros. should do, they should probably do a Superman movie with a Black Superman. :smiling_face:

And maybe get a highly decorated progressive Black journalist and essayist to write it.

It would be a gas. :smiling_face:

No, but one can make an argument that Superman is a bit of a fascist – and is a “good fascist” because, again, we agree with what he’s doing. And one can have an honest disagreement with that assessment and argue that he’s not fascist in any way.

I would of course say that they’re wrong, but it’s all just a matter of perspective. It’s all in how you look at it.

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I applaud you for getting into that much detail in a topic like this and doing the research lol

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I try no to get worked up on social media “MSNBC” stuff, but I have to point out that NPR is completely wrong. “Super” gets tossed around like a corporate title when it’s’ literally the “created” audience doing the naming and the Corporate and state backed Owners making the names and writing the stories. The “job” has always been to inspire those who Make America Great & Build Back Better! See what I did there? I purposely conflated the political parties slogans as Comic Titles.

In the multi-Verse I’m down with a Black Superman. I created a whole story arc on Krypton being in a system of different races and that Krypton is actually in stasis because the African Heroes placed a Magical Drum around it preventing it from all of Brainiacs’ attacks. The other planets have there own set of Powered beings who escape or leave to visit this Earth that Kal-El lives on. We just haven’t “written” their stories yet!

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@Stephen.Gluck.Henderson.67303

I try no to get worked up on social media “MSNBC” stuff, but I have to point out that NPR is completely wrong. “Super” gets tossed around like a corporate title when it’s’ literally the “created” audience doing the naming and the Corporate and state backed Owners making the names and writing the stories. The “job” has always been to inspire those who Make America Great & Build Back Better! See what I did there? I purposely conflated the political parties slogans as Comic Titles.

I have no idea what you just said there… :smiling_face:

@TheMidnightGhost

I applaud you for getting into that much detail in a topic like this and doing the research lol

It’s just doing a quick Google search on an article that I remember once reading. It’s not really research. :smiling_face:

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Figured as much. :clap:

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it is still an oxymoron; there has never been such a thing as a good fascist

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