I can’t speak for movie Joker since I haven’t seen it but I can give some reasons why I think people grow to identify with Joker. The world is a chaotic and heartless and instead of pretending it isnt, Joker embraces the truth. There are a lot of people in this world that agree with this philosophy on life.
But there are so many other characters, even just in the DC Universe, that also reflect this ideology who aren’t mass murderers with no empathy seeking nothing more than destruction. It’s not about the ideology, but the actions of the character, and by identifying with him these people either ignore these terrible things (which is bad) or embrace them (which is worse).
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I got to be honest I really don’t see the problem. People get attached to horrible characters all the time. Hell Sinestro was a literal facist and terrorist but he’s still my favorite character. It’s probanly just the nature of Parasocial interaction.
I’m not talking about people who like the character. I like the character. Most people like the Joker as a character. That’s not what this is about. It’s about people who IDENTIFY with him. That’s what concerns me.
Does it feel like we’re arguing in circles?
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Maybe. But I think it’s because we both (or myself and others) seem to be talking about two different things. One of us is talking about people who like the character, and me talking about identification with the character. And then, once we are on the same page we talk about whether it’s worrisome or not. I think the issue I’m having is I don’t see any compelling arguments so far about why we shouldnt worry about people who identify with or ignore the actions of a character with exteremely violent actions when there are equal alternatives even in the same universe.
I still fail to see an issue. There has always been people like this and there always will be.
Why is it wrong to want to change that? Why is it wrong to want to prevent people with sick ideologies from manipulating the characters you enjoy reading? Why is it wrong to prevent heinous acts inspired by characters who were misrepresented/understood? These are the issues I have.
I understand you have issues with these people but there isn’t much that can be done about it. Unless they commit a crime they have a right to whatever insane views they may have.
You may have good intentions but this kind of thinking will lead to censorship which I can not support.
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I’ve always liked villains. The Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Dracula, etc. I like the macabre and the dark side of human nature. Villains in fiction allow us to explore that. In particular, the Joker represents the antithesis of our hero, Batman. I like how Bats is a darker hero and the Joker became a “lighter” sort of villain, who uses humor and clownish antics to highlight his heinous and hilarious high-jinks. 
That being said, when the Joker is written in a bad way it just cheapens the character. I am very particular about his characterization. In recent years I think he’s been getting “edgier” to appeal to the audience and I don’t like it. When people go too far and start to shape their lives around these characters I think they’ve crossed a line. As people who enjoy villains we really need to keep in mind the separation between fiction and reality. Yes we can enjoy seeing a clown murdering people, but you know it isn’t real. It should be thought-provoking, but I don’t understand people who actually “agree” with the Joker. You know he’s a bad guy. You can understand the crazy logic in his schemes, but he shouldn’t reach the point where he becomes a real hero. He’s a villain, he does villain things.
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I’m not talking about censoring the character but ensuring we as a fandom and DC as a company don’t act as though this permissable. These people can say whatever they want but we all need to make it clear that we don’t support this and allow for this character to be manipulated in such a way. Just because it’s always been this way or always will be make it right. And if there are ways for us to exclude them from this character or prevent possible crimes to be committed based on his actions in the future, than we should take it.
I agree wholeheartedly. As I’ve said in this thread, I’m not against the Joker as a character or any villian. I love horror films and movies like Nightcrawler. But that doesn’t mean I don’t worry about other “fans” that you’ve described. I’m worried I can be lumped in with those people and that we, by not acknowledging them and pushing back on them, all silently saying this behavior is permissable.
@OmniLad
I’m not a Joker obsessive, however I do find looking into the rationale of the character quite interesting. I am a highly functioning sociopath. So was Sherlock Holmes, and so is the Joker.
Certainly for some they appreciate (perhaps to an obsessive degree) the sociopathology of “I’m gonna do what I’m gonna do and if people don’t like it, bleep ‘em”.
Is this because they feel they can’t? Perhaps. Certainly some (most/all) people have fantasies that trip their triggers, but don’t want them to happen in real life.
Certainly I can relate to the “I will do what I believe to be right and if people or the law don’t like it, to darn bad. I understand the potential consequences for such behavior, as does the Joker. However, in that acceptance of consequences and not caring, maintaining the personal philosophy of “I will do what I believe to be right” is more important than the consequences.
Is that sociopathic behavior? Certainly. Is it “wrong”? Well that depends on who you ask. To the societal norms, the answer is “Of course it’s wrong.” To the Joker, the answer is “Nope.”
Many people knowingly violate laws, driving above the speed limit, for example. Is doing so the action of an “unbalanced person”. The general answer is “no”. Why? Because the societal norm says it’s OK, even though you are violating the law and might get a ticket.
Of course these norms change. Back in the ‘70s it was perfectly acceptable to take a kids softball team and have most of those kids sitting in the back of a pickup truck while driving 65 mph on the freeway. Do that today, and they will cart you off to jail for child endangerment.
Is it a question of social context and norms of the time, or is it an absolute based on the standards of today? The answer a person gives probably tells you a lot about their personal psychology.
If obsessive fans still grasp that the Joker is a fictional character in a fictional world, are they a danger? Are they more or less dangerous than people who talk about a tv character and talk about them as real people, because they feel they know them? This happened with soap operas quite a bit, back in the day. People saw these characters 5 times a week and were engaged in their life. Often more so than some of their friends and family. Which is more “unhinged”?
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This is my worry as well, whenever I say that I like the Joker. Because I’ve realized there are certain groups of fans who take it to another level. It’s hard to always have the rider on it. “I like the Joker… as a fictional character and do not condone his actions”. It’s too much to say.
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Have you tried “I appreciate the Joker as a character.” Just a thought.
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@DeSade-acolyte A well thought out and written response, per usual Desade. Thanks for joining in. You are right, just because something is a social norm or law doesn’t mean it’s right. But we aren’t talking about Lucile Ball not being allowed to say pregnant on TV. And we aren’t talking about speeding or even something like drug use. We are talking about a character who commits mass murder, extreme acts of violence, and shows a clear lack of empathy. I think those are, currently, agreeably wrong and heinous acts/behaviors. With that said, we are not talking about those who read the character with morbid curiosity, or admire his conflict with Batman, or are able to acknowledge the character as bad and the story as fiction. I am speaking of those who identify with him and ignore his violence. I am talking about those who idealize him. I’m talking about those who manipulate him into an icon that can then be traced back to make the rest of the DC fandom as bad people who condone this behavior.
Grouping up to silence people for having a different view is wrong. I don’t like the idea of ganging up on people for having views that can “potentially” lead to violence. I’m not a fan of this mob justice mentality and think it will lead to the siuation just getting worse.
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I’m not trying to silence them. And it’s not as simple as two people having a different point of view. I am all for diverse and complex discourse (I wouldn’t have made this thread if I wasn’t), but this isn’t a different point of view. This is a manipulation of the character in order to promote, insight, and justify violence. We, as the DC fanbase, shouldn’t want to be associated with that. I’m not saying they can’t be who they are. I’m saying I don’t want them to be reprentations of this fandom or the characters within it.
The truth is you/me/others can’t control that. There is a history of people taking ownership of symbols and ideas for bad reasons. Take Nazi Germany. The “SS” symbols were appropriated by them from much older traditions that had nothing to do with fascism. Look at the swasitka.
“ In the Zoroastrian religion of Persia, the swastika was a symbol of the revolving sun, infinity, or continuing creation. It is one of the most common symbols on Mesopotamian coins. The icon has been of spiritual significance to Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.”
So if others are going to appropriate cultural icons, we really can’t stop them. What can combat them is DC & it’s fan base standing up for things such as diversity and inclusion. DC can also do this in some of the stories they tell. There are means of storytelling that can be grounded but still the good guys & girls can (at least sometimes) be paragons of virtue, of our better selves. And the bad guys & girls can be just bad, uncaring people. I don’t know if we need to go as far as “mustache twirling” villains, but a few on occasion isn’t a bad thing.
Bringing back some Silver & Bronze Age sensibilities to a few books wouldn’t hurt. Not the whole line, but a few. Tell a few “zany” Joker stories. The character doesn’t have to be a malevolent mass murder in every instance. Bring back some of the “fun” to the Joker. After all, if he’s about chaos, chaos can occasionally be whimsical and nonsensical.
How about making Batman a bit less of an OCD douche bag as well, at least in occasion.
One can’t stop the appropriation of iconography, but, if you make other, more positive and/or less violent stories you steal back some of the power of that iconography that certain parties of dubious repute have been counting on.
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This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. I want DC to do everything it can, as well as us (the fans), to prevent it from being appropriated. If we push away from the character being manipulated and other things like that then we can hold more power than those who abuse it. By making these changes we are preventing appropriation to a certain degree.