@OmniLad
Yea, this is my only outlet for DC fandom as well. I’ve been looking for the right person to introduce to comics so I can have someone to talk to about it irl, but right now none of my friends are DC fans, or comicbook fans at that.
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It would have been so cool to see Ben’s bat battle Heath’s joker. That woulda been the best that would have been a dream come true.
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From a film standpoint, I think both Nolan and Burton Jokers SUCKED. Neither gave the sense of sociopathic fun and both played with the idea of the Joker not being physically & visually changed (Nolan) or that the character would adopt normal flesh toned makeup. (Burton) each of those decisions are anti-thetical to who Joker is. And I am not holding my breath for this next Joker movie either, based on trailer.
So special answer 4, none of the above.
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@Desade. Hi! I personally disagree with you just because I think we both appreciate different aspects of the Joker (which is totally okay). Personally, I like a more grounded, dark, and scary Joker like Nolan’s. That’s probably why I love Brian Azarello’s “Joker” series so much. But I get your point, I like the more fun and out there Joker versions too. Especially Mark Hamill’s take.
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I think what makes Batman and his rogues such enduring characters is how widely they CAN be interpreted. Comedy, horror, crime drama, they can be adapted to fit anything.
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If only there was a Joker like Sweet Tooth. That would be amazing
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@OmniLad I think it was Paul Dini who said “the scariest thing about the Joker is if you met him on the street he is just as likely to give you $100 as kill you.
That to me is the more truly horrifying part of the joker. You never know what to expect. Frivolity about gassing most of Gotham or poisoning the water supply, that is a someone truly mental. The fact of doing something like that just for the sheer glee & amusement of it, that is a hardcore sociopath. The Killing Joke and beyond Jokers I find ultimately more predictable, which lessens the Joker as a character and makes him much more 2D.
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I can understand that. Personally, I disagree, but that’s okay.
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Snyder’s Batman by far is the best portrayal in looks I’ve seen and Ben Affleck fit the role perfect. I wish they would do another movie with Ben in the role. However, Nolan’s movies were superb and I did like his take on the Joker.
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Do you mean that as in just purely costume or all around character?
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@OmniLad, that WAS long, but totally worth the read 
I agree with almost of everything you wrote and can respect all of it.
First off, you won’t ever hear me try to deny Nolan’s impeccable talents, he may quite literally be the greatest director to touch comic book material at this point. He sets the bar pretty high though. He definitely got the character but that series is about Batman as the protagonist where his ideology and values are only challenged by monsters and madmen.
As someone who writes screenplays, I’m sure you would be able to see the difficulty in telling a story where Batman fights Superman but they are both perfect and non-flawed without being predictable and a little cliche. For me, I dont see it as Snyder getting the character wrong because he is intentionally making him the unwitting antagonist. But I feel he did it well by using Batman’s other characteristics. Specifically, paranoia, determination, his desire to protect.
That being said, I get that doesnt really come through all that well. I was there in the theatre day one, I cant say I wasnt disappointed with the way it was crafted and edited. That didnt seem like the Snyder I’ve come to expect. I wasnt upset about any of the character choices, just that the story didnt really come together…ok, Luthor disappointed me too. The extended cut is a huge improvement, but it still doesn’t quite “get there”.
As a cinephile and a fan of the characters, I make alot of concessions for BvS. In alot of ways I love a movie that isnt there. But I weigh the things I like in it vs the things I dont, put that against the 2008 Wolfgang Petersen script, and against any “first time they meet” story and I cant help but be grateful for what we got. It takes the character seriously, it clearly appreciates the medium of comics as all of those plot threads have been brought up in the books before.
The film very easily could have been a story where Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent get booked in the same room on a cruise and try to stop a jewel theif without revealing their identities to each other. Alot of fans would be happy but I dont think that story works for modern theatre audiences, not without a heavy dose of lighthearted humor.
I really want DC to get to some sort of big-screen Crisis and all the epic and poignant drama I felt reading the comics when I was young. From a filmmaking standpoint I dont think you can make that drama feel real if Superman isnt taken seriously which is why I feel Snyder’s MoS is amazing. Where a lot of fans saw a “dour, emo, Superman” I just saw “Real life Superman”. I didnt see it as a betrayal at all (I appreciate that you’ve said no such thing too) It gave me a really convincing reason for a Godlike character to be as unrealistically righteous and noble as Superman is. Everything served a purpose (maybe too much purpose in the case of Jor-El) Zod had a way less contrived and campy reason to be fighting Kal-El, Faora-Ul was a serious force to be reckoned with (and hotter than a mouthful of wasabi!) I had a great time and just as I start saying “ok, nothing left to do but send them to the phantom z…wait how is he going to win. OMG, HE WENT THERE HE READ BYRNE SUPERMAN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHSOME!!!” So I’m sure you can imagine my surprise that the only thing anyone had to say about it was that it should be lighthearted fun and Superman never kills, and a ton of christly images of Christopher Reeve, like Superman 3 and 4 never happened. Those “fans” killed Superman films as far as I can tell.
Again, nothing but respect for you. It’s been a great conversation with a fellow fan!
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You guys are the BEST!!!
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Thanks for that, man! Such a cool read and take on the universe. Hope to bump into you in some threads in the future.
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@Zombedy I respect your take on enjoying what you feel is a more realistic Superman but I do think you’re being unfair to those that didn’t like it. Superman as a character means different things to different people. For me growing up it was a character that inspired me to be the best human being that I could. To strive to be better. So naturally, I wasn’t a big fan of Snyder’s more cynical take. I know others feel the same. Christopher Reeve was an amazing Superman but it’s not just that we think there’s only one way to do it. Smallville was actually my favorite take on the character of Clark Kent. Not perfect by any means but he felt very human and still gave off a feeling of hope that I just never got from the Snyder Superman.
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Hey @Chad22, I don’t know about that. Zombedy made it pretty clear that this was what they found most important about the character. They weren’t necessarily saying their interpretation of Superman was “right”, because it’s not possible for someone to be right about that. A lot of my back and forth with them has been discussing what we find most important about these movies and characters and trying to better understand what other people think. What you said could easily be said right back at you. That it’s unfair for you to place your own thoughts about Superman on to those who did like Snyder’s interpretation/didn’t like the Reeves-era. It’s totally okay to disagree with them, and I agree with you in some regards, but I just thought saying they were being unfair didn’t reflect their argument very well since they were just expressing their own opinion.
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@OmniLad I do think saying that those fans “killed” Superman films was unfair but I agree with you. Like I said, Superman means different things to different people. Both sides do take it too far sometimes.
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@Chad22 no, not those who didnt like it. Those who act like its the worst thing that ever happened and blow everything out of proportions with online campaigns to reboot the entire franchise, all with the rationale that “it’s supposed this way”. Its misses the point of engaging a story. Rebooting isnt something they are going to do because the rest of the movie going audience probably wont show up. They werent asking for a DCEU to begin with. So WB has answered with relying on solo movies with new characters (overall good) But they arent making Superman movies. When they do, it will be along time from now and it wont be anything more than a low risk, moderate budget, light-hearted, action-comedy with cool special effects.
Like I said, I understand alot of the backlash for BvS. It doesnt really get Luthors plan across, it is a bit bleak, it has the seemingly random franchise set-ups. As much as I love Man of Steel, I dont blame people who simply “didnt like it”. But the series does seem to be dead for no other reason than people wanting a barrier to Supermans film and story content. People have built entire YouTube careers out of trashing Zack Snyder in a heavy-handed, mean spirited, hyperbolic, fashion because they think Superman can only be handled one very specific way.
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@chad22, I’m also weighing it all with Supermans comics history, which I get is unfair to ask everyone else to cope with.
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This thread evolved into something more than I could had ever imagined
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