That’s a major concern of mine also. I used to admire his stuff even if I wasn’t watching it. He started to lose me with mission impossible 3
You don’t hand jj a half a billon dollar bag and not expect him to have input. Both The Batman and the Coates’ script appear to be on the outside of the DCEU like Joker
I haven’t read that he was personally involved yet, just his production studio is. Though, it’s probably naive to think he wouldn’t want any say in a superman movie (especially knowing about Flyby). That said, most of my issues with Abrams is in his writing, but his actual direction and visual style is fine. Since we know that Ta-Nehisi Coates is actually signed on to write, I trust his judgement and story and think it’ll probably keep Abram’s narrative problems at bay.
“not thought through”, man they jumped into the deep end when they could barely swim
I think the DCEU needs a reboot; The Flash movie would be good to help that by doing Flashpoint(Get a younger Batman and a more experienced Flash but keep Cavill, Momoa, Gadot)
Agreed
Yeah, that was a screw-up; as well as Cheetah’s CGI
@Stephen.Gluck.Henderson.67303, I’m with you on most of that list but I’m a bit confused on number 1
there hasn’t yet been an MCU reboot of F4
Thanks for being diplomatic in regard to Snyder. In other places on the internet things get nasty because some people seem heck bent on smearing those who enjoy the Snyderverse and the man himself.
I get what you mean by the stakes being too high to involve just one hero. I too would like smaller stakes on occasion and it would certainly keep the budgets down which I’m sure WB would love. I wonder if they would hire directors and writers without much fervor around their previous work would help.
I think beyond just better stakes, I want the DCEU to have better throughlines and character progression. I feel like all of the characters have been stuck in the same state and same place they’ve been in for years now. I wish they’d focus a little more on character than epic visuals and battles. I think the fact that almost all of the villains have been giant, world destroying monsters prevents them from doing so.
How have they been stuck in the same place?
Superman from reluctant closeted hero, to embracing his powers and revealing himself to the world, to saving the world (several times). He’s meant to go through another low before coming out the other end the Superman we all know, but we may not see that.
Batman from angry disgruntled Dark Knight to restored faith in humanity. Again, more to his story we may not see.
Aquaman from not knowing where he fits in the world to embracing his roots and taking his place on the throne.
Billy Batson from teen on the run to finding family and finding purpose.
Wonder Woman from a warrior with a wide eyed view of man’s world, to a peacekeeper that lives in it. Love found, love lost.
Harley Quinn from Joker’s pet to her own sort of anti-hero, if you will.
Cyborg only had their stories started in Justice League, but went through pretty complete arcs, especially Cyborg (who again, we may not see develop any further).
I mean, I can understand wanting to see more “character” moments, but I feel like describing them as stuck in the same place sounds like the movies were just a bunch of action scenes that didn’t really provide any type of character development or nuance, which I think is a bit unfair.
My turn to say… “This is not meant as an attack on your post… we’re just talkin’ 
”.
Haha! Not taken as an attack at all. I’m happy to have this discussion. Perhaps saying no character development is a bit bad faith, but I think a lot of the character development we’ve seen has been shallow and not fully realized or fleshed out.
Batman is the most obvious of these for me as I think the whole Martha scene has been mocked to death at this point. His turnout was so quick and unrealistic that it was hard for me to feel any emotional attachment to it. On top of that, we really didn’t have much context as to why Bruce was in that mental state to begin with. We get hints at it with the Robin costume, but the reason why he was the way he was had yet to be explored or was handed out in exposition filled dialogue.
For Superman, the reason his ark feels shallow is in your own description of it:
He has gone through the same arc multiple times now. His initial closeting of powers was also not due to his own character flaws, but his father’s push to do so. Clark was always a noble hero who went out of his way to help those in need from a young age (Bus scene Man of Steel). Now, obviously, watching him grow out of his parents’ push for secrecy is compelling, but it’s not reflective of a major change of his actual character.
Wonder Woman in her most recent film was a passive character who’s actions didn’t have much of an effect on the actual story being told. She simply reacted to the actions of those around her. The implied character arc of that film of her needing to become a noble hero who lets go of the past feels a bit ridiculous to me as I feel that she had always been portrayed as a noble go-getter up until that point and the change in focus on Steve was done simply to have that unnecessary arc. On top of that, I think the arc of her obsessing over a man she had last seen decades ago is a bit insulting to the strong, independent female character that she is. Obviously she is allowed to feel love and sadness, but it had been what? 70 years between each movie. It’s just too much time for that.
Cyborg is probably the most compelling character arc, but since it wasn’t (and given the unfortunate situation with Ray Fisher, won’t be) explored in the main DCEU timeline outside of the Snyder Cut, I have no investment in it anymore.
Aquaman is had a decent arc within his own film, but his characterization drastically changed from a dangerous bad-ass in the Justice League films to being goofy and childlike in his solo film that it feels very disjointed and almost like it’s two different characters.
Harley and Billy definitely have decent arcs and are definitely my current two favs in the films (ironic since I’ve really never cared for their comic-counterparts), but they’re a minority in the overall scheme of things.
You’re right in that me saying there are no character arcs in these films is a bit bad faith and unfair. But I think that most of the arcs we have seen and you have described are incredibly disjointed and shallow and hardly ever the focus of the films they are in. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that most of the DCEU up until this point was mostly about spectacle as Zack Snyder himself has come out saying he wanted to portray them as god-like mythological beings.
It’s cool if that’s something you or anyone likes, it’s just not my cup of tea. I think these characters have so much potential, and while I love great action and super-powered fight scenes, I want the actual world to be built on engaging and emotional characters.
That’s just my take. Happy to hear your response. 
Yeah, the strategy going forward, or the official plan at Warner Bros. and DC, is the Multiverse.
“What the multiverse allows you to do is that you can tell great stories and it doesn’t tie you to a single continuity,” he said, pointing to the fact that the Earth of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Justice League co-exists alongside Matt Reeves’ The Batman Earth. “It just opens doors to us in a way that you couldn’t have if you just had a singular universe,” he said.
In response to a question about the possibility of Elseworlds movies — stories set far outside regular continuity, and often putting characters in extremely unusual circumstances — Hamada said that he’s open to the idea. “It really comes down to the right filmmaker and the right idea. We want them to be great, we want them to be special,” he said, with Joker — which exists outside of every other movie continuity — as an example. “There has to be a reason for it.”
So when someone says that it doesn’t look like Warner Bros. has a plan, or what’s their plan?
Well, the answer to what their plan is it’s everything. They’re doing everything. The WATCHMEN plan, as I guess I’m going to call it.
And it seems like every character, or group of characters, will have their own Earth.
Matt Reeve’s The Batman will have it’s own Earth – and HBO Max spin-off series.
James Gunn’s The Suicide Squad will seemingly be it’s own Earth – and HBO Max spin-off series.
And even though some of the characters in his movie are from the previous movie, I don’t believe the two movie are connected insofar as James Gunn’s The Suicide Squad being a sequel to David Ayers’ Suicide Squad.
And James Gunn said as much.
“Um, it’s its own thing,” Gunn said. “It does not contradict the first movie, I don’t think. It might in some small ways… I don’t know.”
I’m guessing Shazam! and it’s follow-up, and Black Adam, will share the same Earth. And who knows, HBO Max may develop a Marvel’s Family spin-off or something. That might be kind of cool.
And I’m guessing Warner Bros. may do something with the JSA in either movie form or HBO Max series, or both. The Hourman movie will no doubt tie into that. And all of this will probably be a part of that Shazam! and Black Adam Earth too.
You would assume that Warner Bros. are cooking up similar things for the Green Lanterns, and they’ll have their own Earth or universe, and both the movies and the HBO Max series will probably tie into one another…
And JJ Abrams and Ta-Nehisi Coates’ Superman may get similar treatments too.
The Milestone universe seems to be getting underway with the “Static Shock” movie having a writer attached now. So there’s another Earth, Earth-M.
And all of this is just the tip of the iceberg because this is all that we know about publicly right now.
And it can be argued that Warner Bros. are doing this like the comics. The greatest strength to the DC Comics are it’s stand-alone stories. The WATCHMEN’s and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS’.
So it seems like Warner Bros. are just going with that now. They’re doing the WATCHMEN plan.
Or they could be doing something entirely different. Who knows? Who knows what their plan is… [insert smiley face]
Yeah, that’s kind of what I’ve been figuring and what I think is the best way to satisfy everyone and allow for artists to do their own interesting takes on the character. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little sad that we aren’t getting a fully developed universe of connections, but maybe after things have settled and more films have come out, they can blend in some of the fan favorites from each universe to create a blended one.
Well, who knows, Warner Bros. may be building it all up starting with the Justice Society of America first.
Doing it the old way or whatever. [insert smiley face]
That’s perfectly fair, thanks for the clarification. It’s perfectly fine that you find the movies handling of the characters shallow and/or inconsistent.
The Martha scene is mocked, and the memes are pretty funny, but I found it pretty compelling. His trauma is laid out fairly well with the flashback scene, and to hear his mother’s name at that point hit him like a ton of bricks… to realize that he was turning into the exact thing that he swore to protect against. I think it’s perfectly acceptable for anyone to have an a-ha moment, Batman included. Well, I felt with it anyway 
.
I personally don’t mind seeing Clark save the world time & again. I find the depiction rather inspiring actually. Scenes like destroying the World Engine, or killing Doomsday, while action scenes, do go along way for me in symbolizing overcoming heavy burdens and sacrifice. BvS Ultimate Edition does a pretty good job showing the investigative journalist side of him, too.
Ok, I was gonna do a point for point, but I’m running out of time here. Certain things you said I agree with. I agree that while Superman went through a lot, his depiction didn’t change much. He was written fairly one note in the Snyder movies, and could have benefitted from more nuanced personal interactions with characters not named Lois. I agree that some aspects of WW84 were ridiculous, especially those involving Diana & Steve.
I agree with this as well:
I love spectacle, especially superhero spectacle. Otherwise, I would probably be following a different genre to be honest. The same way you don’t want the action to come at the expense of story & character development, I don’t want the drama to rip the movies of any excitement. I think there’s a balance to be achieved there.
At the end of the day, I’m going to spend an hour or two on my couch to hopefully be transported to a different world. I try not to over-analyze
Totally valid. A lot of my criticisms of these movies come from the film dork/snob side of me and far too often overwhelm the comic fan side of me. I’m sure if I wasn’t as into movies in general as I am, I would probably love the DCEU a lot more. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
With DC’s Constantine, Zatanna, Justice League Dark and whatever else may be connected to that stuff they can call it the DARK UNIVERSE ™ . That’s not being used and the logo’s available 
I remember liking that part when I first saw it in the theater for this reason. It also shamed me as a life long DC fan because it never dawned on me that their mothers had the same first name 
. It did seem strange that Clark called his “ma” by her first name. But I too would be like WTF if someone just said my mom’s name in the middle of our fisticuffs
I rewatched BvS in the days leading up to the Snyder Cut, and I can say that it really does play out a bit ridiculous.
HA! It’s nice to be reminded that WB/DC isn’t the only movie studio that attempted and failed at copying the MCU formula.
It’s all “ridiculous” to be honest. It’s funny to be debating scenes in movies about superpowered grown men & women in tights running around fighting aliens. These works can be as artful, serious, lighthearted, symbolic, or what have you, as they want to be… but there will always be an element of ludicrousness to it all… but I still love ‘em nonetheless .
Oh, so he’s like a comic book writer taking over for another comic book writer. He skimmed the previous issues, but he’s not all that worried if he failed to catch a continuity flub. 
Same here. For most people, a change in perspective is a long process, but it’s not unheard of for someone to become deradicalized from an extreme position in an instant once that person realizes, “I’m the monster, not the other guy.”
Oh, so he’s like a comic book writer taking over for another comic book writer. He skimmed the previous issues, but he’s not all that worried if he failed to catch a continuity flub.
No, he’s just doing an Elseworld story – just using some of the same characters.
It’s all the rage at Warner Bros. right now I hear… [insert smiley face]
And they’ve done it before. Christopher Nolan did it to Tim Burton. And Matt Reeves is about to do it to Christopher Nolan.
Or what James Gunn is really doing… the previous series was “cancelled” because the critics hated it, so James Gunn is just rebooting it and starting over with a new #1 – and not using music from Queen this time.
And it’s kind of funny, because it can be argued that David Ayers was kind of riffing on what James Gunn had done over at Marvel – at least in the marketing. And now Warner Bros. have gone and gotten James Gunn to actually do James Gunn.
@Rivalor I agree, lets just reboot it at this point. The Flash movie can be an easy way to adjust a new timeline
It looks far more like a Batman Forever (loose semi-sequel) than a Batman Begins (hard reboot).
