Honestly I do not see Talia and Bruce working,(not just because i am a hardcore batcat fan) especially after she kept Damian and possibly still keeping Athanasia from him for a minimum of ten years (longer in Kingdom Come).
3 Likes
I am perhaps biased, but the fact that Denny O’Neil’s preferred ship for Bruce was Talia (he created her, after all), but he deliberately thought it was a tragic, doomed romance, rather than one that should be pursued, is how I see her too (though my preferred ship is BatCat).
2 Likes
True. However not to speak ill of the dead but that could explain why Damián got to get put fully into main earth cannon yet the same cant be said yet of Helena Wayne and her lack of appearances in elseworlds. Despite her being created ten years before Damián and just six after Talia. as O’Neil was editor of the bat books for a long time.
1 Like
I think the problem with Helena is that I don’t think people really want a baby Helena, and unless they pull a Jon Kent, which I also think nobody wants, they’re not going to have one in main canon. I don’t fully agree with Didio that having sidekicks grow up ages Bruce, but having a new daughter in canon with Catwoman who we all saw born, and then having her be old enough to be a sidekick at least, let alone the adult Huntress or Batwoman - well, that’s just not possible. We have Helena as Batwoman in Bat/Cat, obviously, but that’s many, many years in the future.
Also, I think Talia was created before O’Neil was editor - when he was “just” a writer. But I could be wrong. But I thought she was created in the 70s, and then O’neil went to Marvel and did Daredevil things, and then came back in around 1985ish, and masterminded Year One and the Post Crisis bat continuity until 2000.
1 Like
King has made me believe in Bat/Cat.
I always shipped Batman and Talia (probably has to do with my love for the “Demon Trilogy”).
2 Likes
According to his Wikipedia page Mr. O’Neil moved back to DC as editor in 1986 the reboot for batman fully started in 87. however catwoman and batman did have there growing apart moments in 86. batman had been dating catwoman finally as Bruce Wayne in 1980 and the brave and the bold 197 (where it’s revealed how they get together in earth two) in 1983. batman 392 has Batman and Catwoman going on a date in February 1986. yet start growing ‘apart’ soon after is suspicious, then Batman: Son of the Demon in 87. Then despite the golden age theme of Kingdom Come 1996 (the green lantern is Allen Scott and the flash is Jay Garric), it’s not Helena but Damian as Ibn al Xu’ffasch as Batman’s child.
ps: Not to mention 1992’s batman returns Catwoman surviving was a last-minute addition to the film. and Nightwing vol 2 52 has a date of 2000 just before O’Neil was done as editor, and batman and Catwoman’s relationship does not restart till 2004 with hush.
PS: who says Helena has to start as a sidekick, look how long they are drawing out batman and Catwoman’s one-year separation. she could remain going from baby to 5 for 20 years…they did it with Lian harper.
1 Like
Well, I know that a lot of Bat/Cat fans have sworn undying hatred against O’neil for him letting Frank Miller make Selina a prostitute.
I don’t think O’Neil specifically was against Bat/Cat, but he was very firm about Batman being celibate - The Other Scott Peterson: The Batbible (from Scott Peterson, one of O’Neil’s protege editors and writers at DC).
As for Helena being a baby…remember that last time they tried to put Helena in main continuity (in Brubaker/Peiffer’s runs), she gave her up for adoption, because otherwise…too many kidnapping or murder or whatever plots. Or they would Lian Harper her like in the horrible Cry for Justice. I don’t think Lian is a good model for Helena, and I remain committed to my belief that it’s next to impossible to organically show a baby growing up in mainstream continuity without a serious aging of the parents, or a cheat like Jon that nobody seems to like.
1 Like
Actually, she was somewhat ambiguous in millers run on the main Batman book, as the leather and bondage gear look was prevalent in Heavy metal at the time, same with short hair. she could have been stans bodyguard as bruce mentions her knowing karate, not boxing.
However, it was Mindy Newell who solidified her as a professional dominatrix. and she takes up boxing lessons from Wildcat.
I agree bruce would likely be celibate after he becomes Batman and starts getting hard to explain scars. however, he is defiantly not celibate after Catwoman volume 3 issue 32. and defiantly gets with Catwoman more often after it was made canon that Catwoman always knew who Batman was (Batman vol 3 issue 50).
True Helena gets kidnapped when it’s just Catwoman raising her as a single mother. (however, I refuse to believe Helena kyle is JR, daughter) Bruce would defiantly insist on Catwoman moving in with him (and really would drag her to judge wolfman to get hitched). also, Batman and Catwoman actually alternate who goes out on patrol during this series after Helena is born (as shown in the special) so to get to Helena you would have to contend with the manor’s security, protective batdad, or Catmom, protective bat siblings (i picture Jason being her main babysitter), a possible protective butler with a shotgun (depending on the timeframe).
If you manage that, Batman and Catwoman in all their paranoia prep would likely have Helena chipped with at least two trackers that would alert her protective Man of Steel godfather, wonderful Godmother, a woman of power aunt, half Kryptonian ‘cousin’, the martian uncle, the fast-running uncle, the metal man uncle, and the glowy uncles. If they manage to somehow take them all out they deserve the ransom they would get. So ya I would see Helena as being very safe. As to a cry for justice moment…yes that could happen.
1 Like
All of this would be a fun story, but it really does age the characters. And I think the Cry for Justice stuff is horrible, so I wouldn’t want anyone to think about doing that ever again, no matter which kid.
1 Like
oh, I agree wholeheartedly which is why I am glad they reckoned Lian’s death. Plus it gave us shoes. =). PS: given what’s possibly going to be happening with the Dark crisis i would love to have Helena introduced if they do a new-gen thing.
2 Likes
PS: this is me overthinking things. Yes it does age up the characters however 2 years have officially passed in the current comics given Damian started rebirth at twelve and is now 14, and Damian being introduced into the batfamily at age 10 (8 in Batman Wayne family adventures) set bruces age in accordance to him permanently. and actually, bruce had been batman for 14 years when he finally got together with Catwoman of earth two in 1955. Helena was born a year later in 1956 and is 19 when she becomes Huntress. batman tends to be 26 when he first puts on his cape and cowl making him 40 when they get married and Catwoman is around 39 (head cannon she is a year younger than bruce as Catwoman is a year younger than batman.) however we do not know when Damian was conceived. I feel it was before he returned to Gotham or in year zero.
2 Likes
I personally still think that there was sped up grown involved. But peeps strongly disagree with me about that. 
1 Like
Well… actually it’s theoretically possible at least in the new earth timeline, but only after Talia has access to lex corp. Let’s face it Talia likely stole every bit of tech she could from the servers to use with Leviathan. However, the issue with that is bruce and Talia technically do not have sex in the mainstream universe as their marriage was never consummated in the silver age, and Batman: son of the demon is an Elseworlds tale.
1 Like
Eh, it’s all “happened a long time ago” stuff.
2 Likes
At least the upside is that Damien then became bad A**
1 Like
and a massive brat (It’s part of his charm) then again all the robins are brats.
2 Likes
another really odd thing is bruce knew he has a daughter with Catwoman on earth two in 1978 Batman Family 17 and I flipped through it and Helena does reveal her parentage to Batman. so that would have been in the back of his mind. she also meets him again in batman 20 Catwoman starts her reformation in 1980 batman 323 and 324. and they have another team up in 1982.
1 Like
True that all the robins soon became brats, but Grayson over the years has become less of a brat and more of a pain in the a**
2 Likes
one way to bring Helena Wayne into the mainstream would be a mass crisis event like the dark crisis. then reckoning her as the first robin and or batgirl.
2 Likes
Or if Batman “Did it” With Catwoman and Talia
1 Like