Arrowverse Couch Club Season Two, Week 22: John Diggle Returns


It’s been well over a year since John Diggle’s last appearance in the Arrowverse, but he finally made his long-awaited return this week and in a new city meeting new people to boot! It was also a big week for the original Batwoman as well, as Kate Kane finally began taking her first steps toward regaining her identity just as Safiyah showed up in Gotham to make her return as well. Elsewhere in the Arrowverse, the Legends of Tomorrow tracked down perhaps their best lead yet to find Sara, who was working on escaping Bishop’s captivity, Cecile and the rest of Team Flash had to deal with a deadly psychic enemy and Superman discovered the truth about a secret family member as the threat of an attack from Edge’s Kryptonian army loomed.

Legends of Tomorrow – “Bishop’s Gambit”

  • Considering this clone of Sara has all of her memories, personality, skills, etc. intact, is that good enough for you to consider Sara to still be fully alive, or does it feel like she’s really dead considering this isn’t technically the original?

Batwoman – “Rebirth”

  • Though we know that Ryan will keep the Batwoman mantle in the long term despite Kate’s return, would you still like to see Kate be part of the team again in a different capacity after this season, or would you rather she exit once Black Mask is dealt with?
  • Were you satisfied with Diggle’s first Arrowverse appearance in over a year, or were you hoping for more out of this return?

The Flash – “Masquerade”

  • Did you like the retcon about Cecile having spent time in a mental institution when she was younger, or did you feel it was too much to tack on and further distracted from Barry again?

Superman & Lois – “O Mother, Where Art Thou?”

  • With Jonathan’s line about Clark going his “whole life thinking that you’re the only one left in your family,” does this feel like they’ve finally fully erased Kara or is there still a way she can exist despite that line?
Favorite episode from this week?
  • Legends of Tomorrow – “Bishop’s Gambit”
  • Batwoman – “Rebirth”
  • The Flash – “Masquerade”
  • Superman & Lois – “O Mother, Where Art Thou?”

0 voters

First off, we have to acknowledge that this might all just be a really dark fakeout. I saw someone else theorize that the body Sara was looking at at the end of the episode is actually the clone, made to look like she had succumbed to her earlier poisoning. Bishop could’ve removed or covered up Sara’s scars to further sell the lie so as to better manipulate Sara to his side. It does look like we’re gonna be running w/ this assumption for a while given future episode synopses, but I’m gonna be holding out whatever hope I can that this is still the real, original Sara

That said, assuming this isn’t a fakeout, I’m completely conflicted on the matter. When Bishop was going on about how humans, particularly our minds, are basically just complex machines that can be easily recreated, I thought that this was good setup for the big lesson of the season. I figured that in defeating Bishop, Sara, Ava and the rest of the Legends would ultimately show him that there’s so much more to humanity than what he considers it to be and how you can’t just treat people like computers to be rebooted all the time. But with this major twist, I’m now actually finding myself hoping that Bishop is right. Because if he’s wrong, then that means that my favorite Arrowverse character is truly dead, and I just don’t know how I can possibly accept that. Sara has been such an amazing character for so long, so between my emotional investment and the fact that she’s cheated death so many times, it’s almost like I just have to believe that she’s not really dead. But I also have to admit that this would actually be a clever way to get around her apparent immortality w/out actually writing out her character

What I do know is that if anyone can help her amid going through a clone-based existential crisis, it’s Ava. Sara did the same thing for her several years ago, and while this obviously isn’t the exact same situation, it’s still similar enough to allow Ava to be the strong and supportive one here. While it’ll obviously be a shock to hear, considering that this clone has everything that makes Sara Sara, I have faith that Ava will still see her fiancé and be able to help get her through this. This just really makes it even more necessary for them to be reunited

While I wouldn’t want her to be done on the show for good, I think it’d be for the best if she doesn’t become a regular so that Ryan continues having room to grow and develop. W/ bringing in a new character to take over the Batwoman mantle, it was always gonna be necessary to dedicate a notable amount of time to addressing what happened to Kate, but there’s no reason to think that that storyline won’t be wrapped up by the end of the season. Considering it’s already hampered our introduction to Ryan, the show needs to ensure that we won’t have further arcs like this that become somewhat of a necessary evil. This is ultimately Ryan’s show, and having Kate stick around would detract from that seeing as how her past legacy would constantly be hanging over Ryan’s head, and that’s not something that’s good for a lead character. By the time Sionis is taken down, Kate will see that Ryan deserves the mantle, and I can’t imagine that she’ll want to take it back after everything that’s happened. She’ll be free to pursue a new path on her own (maybe trying to find out what happened to Bruce?), but could still make an occasional return to Gotham when she’s needed or just missing her family

Once I put aside my initial assumption that Dig would reveal that he worked w/ the Green Arrow and knows that Luke is a part of Team Bat, thus allowing them to bond over being superhero support, I thought this worked really well. I knew Dig hadn’t gotten to meet any members of Team Bat (maybe he met Kate off-screen, but even that wouldn’t matter much here), but it was still interesting to see them bond despite being complete strangers just a few minutes earlier. I guess it goes to show just how wise and kind he’s become after so many years at this, and knowing that he’ll be an important part of Luke’s journey to becoming Batwing is all the more satisfying

And while they practically glossed over it, Dig’s comments about being in Gotham to address some lingering headaches combined w/ David Ramsey’s comments about how Dig rejected the box he found in the Arrow series finale is quite telling. I’m still convinced, like most people, that it’s a Green Lantern ring, but since John rejected it, it seems like these headaches are the result of the Guardians trying to force him into accepting it. I can’t really remember any significant storyline where a GL recruit outright refused the ring after being chosen, but Dig’s decision to reject it and wanting to be w/ his family after they moved to Metropolis does make sense. It’s a unique angle that I’m really looking forward to seeing explored further in his next appearances

While I am growing a little more frustrated about the show’s continued lack of focus on its main character, I otherwise thought this was a pretty compelling retcon of Cecile’s character. Knowing the incredible struggles she went through and how she’s completely hid it all these years definitely makes me see her in a different, more positive light both in terms of her previous scenes and whatever she’ll do going forward. I also feel like she hasn’t gotten much significant character development in a while, so this was definitely a welcome addition in that department. Not that she hasn’t had anything to do this season, as her utilizing the Thinker’s chair against Psych is still 1 of the cooler moments from season 7 so far, but this is something that’s gonna have a more lasting impact for her going forward. Plus I loved the fact that we finally got something substantial on Psycho Pirate. I was kinda disappointed that he (or I guess the mask) wasn’t in Crisis after just being teased in Elseworlds, but now I’m satisfied that we’ve got another cool villain in the bag properly

For as big as this episode was, this single moment was the one I dwelled on the most because it seemed to confirm my worst fears regarding Kara not ever being mentioned on the show. I still think it’s a complete disservice to her character and legacy, and further separates this show from the Arrowverse despite everyone’s claims to the contrary. That said, after giving it more thought, I think I might’ve found an explanation for how Kara can still exist in this continuity. My interpretation in a nutshell is this: Lois and Clark haven’t told the boys that Kara is Kryptonian/Supergirl because they want to give her a chance to tell them herself

When Lois and Clark told Jonathan and Jordan that Clark is Superman, it was their secret to reveal and they decided it was the best course of action. While I highly doubt that Kara would have any issue w/ them also telling the boys about her, they might also see this as being a case where it’s not their secret to reveal, even to family. Not only is Kara a full Kryptonian, but her life as a superhero also makes her identity more sensitive. While I’m sure they feel it’s important to make sure the boys find out at some point seeing as how Kara’s still family, I’ll admit it’s more of a long-term important thing and thus not particularly urgent. It’s not quite like w/ Alex and Kelly where Alex needed to be able to lean on Kelly fully after Kara got trapped in the Phantom Zone, and that required her to be completely honest about why she was so depressed. So knowing that Kara was also incredibly unlikely to have an issue w/ Kelly knowing, she went ahead and told her. I can’t think of a situation in S&L so far where that same sort of important urgency has presented itself w/ the boys, and so maybe Clark and Lois feel that they can wait until the next time they see Kara again to give her an opportunity to tell them herself. Plus they might also figure that Kara would have more fun revealing that fact in person anyway

All of that said, I don’t see this as a defense of the show but rather my overthinking brain trying to come up w/ any scenario where such an important character doesn’t get erased. Honestly, I’m still furious at the show for letting things get this far, and even if my theory ends up being true, it doesn’t excuse the fact that we shouldn’t have to be thinking this hard to work around it. If it’s true, then we should’ve had even just a brief moment where Clark and Lois are talking separately and mention that they’re gonna wait until Kara can tell the boys herself. And the boys would still know about their Aunt Kara in general, so this wouldn’t excuse casual mentions of her in that context even if they also don’t know she’s Kryptonian, something I also refuse to believe the boys wouldn’t have asked about at some point when they were finding out all about Superman. I know we’re finally getting a full Arrowverse connection w/ Diggle’s appearance in the episode after the next one, but the fact that we’ve had to wait this long for any sort of reference to the wider universe is just infuriating

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I would like to see that somehow. Maybe an anti-hero middle ground with both Kate’s and Circe’s memories? Though I guess that wouldn’t totally work because Alice is still around. But I don’t know.

I honestly felt nostalgic seeing him on screen. It was nice to see him in his usual over-protective role of being the ‘hero parent’. I hope his headaches are okay? I wonder what that’s about.

CW continues to remind me how good all these actors are. All these scenes with Cecile were amazing. I don’t mind that we have lost slight focus on Barry because he’s had seven season. Let’s develop the other characters too.
So, yes, I did like this retcon. It adds so much more depth to her character.

Yeah, I agree that maybe they didn’t tell Jon and Jordan about Kara. But this show completely ignoring Kara is starting to bother and worry me. It isn’t that hard to do a phone call or a text message. “Hey, cousin, a crazy Kryptonian is on Earth trying to resurrect Krypton by killing humans. Any chance you ever heard my Mother mention anything about that?”

But this show just continues to ignore her. I get that she was in the Phantom Zone and its their last season and all the Covid restrictions. But I still feel like it could be done. I am hoping there is an explanation in the last five episodes.

I am two weeks behind on Legends right now. I’ll update my thoughts when I watch.

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That much could ultimately depend on how much more Alice gets redeemed. It’s starting to feel like an attempt at a full (or close to full) redemption isn’t completely off the table here, though Ocean’s death is definitely gonna put a damper on that path

I think the Guardians are basically annoying him into taking the ring. Apparently his Flash appearance is gonna deal w/ that more than his others, so we’ve just gotta wait and see when he shows up there (probably) next month

Especially considering how many times they communicated w/ 1 of those or an email in season 1 of SG

My lips are sealed for now. Just make sure you avoid spoilers until then. This week was a real doozy even by Legends standards!

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Oh, yeah. That’s gonna make things rough for her.

Also, is the actor that play Jacob leaving the show? Or is he still gonna be around? That last scene with him really felt like a final goodbye…

I’m being careful. I was two weeks behind on everything until yesterday. I can only sit and watch so much tv at once though. I should get to Legends tomorrow.

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I haven’t seen anything about Dougray Scott leaving the show, so I figure this won’t be more than a temporary absence for Jacob, if that. Hell, it’s not even the 1st time he’s been in jail, so it wouldn’t surprise me to see him out relatively soon

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Personally, I saw Batwoman as the single most improved episode of a very troubled season. S&L remains strong, Flash has its ups and downs this season (and this was a definite up episode), and Legends has actually seemed to be not as good and Sara being a clone is very disappointing (hope that gets reset in the Back to the Finale episode). I still miss Supergirl, as it is easily my favorite of the season (with S&L a strong close second).


While I would love for that to happen, the synopsis for the episode after mentions that Sara reveals her “secret” to Ava and the team. While I suppose that could end up being reset to something different, I think it’s most likely gonna still be her being a clone


I hope not, because it is just bad storytelling in my eyes. It was a surprise that she was a clone, but it was also a huge disappointment…


I think the clone thing is gonna end up sticking around for a while, but like I said earlier, it could also be revealed to be a fakeout as well. But until/unless that happens, we’re just gonna have to accept it as being real sadly :sob:


Ugh, I’m caught up and I’m conflicted. I’m gonna compare this to Agents of Shield so if anyone hasn’t watched all of that I’ll spoiler tag this to be safe…

This is basically what they did in the last season of AOS with Coulson being an LMD. But AOS handled it way better than this. They had a multiple season lead up dealing with LMDs and Coulson’s impending death, and then a final reveal after Coulson had died on his own terms. This is just killing Sara and making her a clone. Which, as of right now, I am not a fan of.

All of that comparison aside, right now I’m not happy with my favorite character in the Arrowverse being killed and then ‘perfected’ and ‘fixed’ of her scars and such. That destroys seasons of character growth and I’m just not happy about it. I’ll give myself time to think this over though, I literally just finished watching this episode.

I kinda hope this is a fake out but I’ll give it time to address itself.

My good thought is now this show has two strong female leads who can’t be killed. So that’s good? :laughing:

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Flash - the institution part seemed more back story than retcon. It provided the necessary structure for the talking victory. Screaming Warrior Chester aside.

S&L - I get your beef with respect to Kara. Do we know where in the history this story is taking place with respect to her arrival?

I liked Jonathan squaring off against Grandpa Sam.

What I keep wondering about is how things played out on JHI’s earth vs “ours”. For JHI, his Superman may have been named by his Lois, but that S&L were never an item.

I like how they called kryptonian consciousness transfer device the Eradicator. all we need now is Connor “Kid Metropolis” Kent and a Cyborg Superman and it will be like the death of superman without the death.


I am actually quite OK with this. I will admit it was a nice shocking twist to see the original Sara dead, while the one we have been following is a clone, but it makes more sense than Bishop curing her of the bite she had received. He is smart, smart enough to be able to develop clones with same thoughts and memories of the original, but he does not strike me as the type who could cure venomous bites. Also, he seems like the type of person to take the easier way out, like she was a goner, so I will just transfer her consciousness into a new body and continue.
Sara still acts and thinks and feels like Sara. Yes, she may be a clone, but so is Ava. She helped Ava when she discovered the truth about herself, and so she should have a different perspective on this. Her soul, her thoughts, her loves is what makes her Sara, not the body. Who is to say when she was revived by the Lazarus Pit after she died before that it did not change her body.

Since Kate is such a member of this family, I would not like for her to come back just to go away again. This would feel like it did when Barry Allen’s father got out of jail and rather than stick around, he disappeared. I agree that Ryan has earned the right to be in the suit now, so Kate should not take this back, but she still has all the fighting skills she had before and could be a good asset for the team. Maybe she could get a new codename and costume like Luke turning into Batwing. Flamebird? (since Nightwing will always be Dick Grayson). I just think she has too many ties, and as long as they keep Ryan the focus, it would be good to keep her around.

I actually was satisfied with his appearance. I got so excited when I saw him because to be honest I had forgotten that he was going to be there. He showed up as the wise mentor who has seen and been through a lot. He was there to provide Luke just the right advice at the right time to bring him back to Team Bat. It made my heart feel good to see him talk to Luke after Luke was self destructing. I am sure he has had many opportunities with Oliver to practice. Also, they laid enough background subplot with him mentioning his headaches and turning down an opportunity to build towards a bigger role, preferably on Flash as they had the closest ties to Arrow. Plus if it does build to Green Lantern, that would be the show best suited to showcase powers like that. I love my Legends, but his transformation may be lost on a show that off the wall plus I heard he will be playing a different character in his appearance there. Batwoman was more grounded so his appearance here made sense. Superman and Lois just forgets about the remaining Arrowverse although he did move to Metropolis.

I enjoyed this development of her character. They have not done much with her beyond give her powers and show she is a great lawyer, but this episode shows how strong she really is. This being said, I did feel the addition of this felt last minute as only one episode before she sees something and hears a voice, and then she is trapped in a psychic cell. It would have been better if they had little scenes here or there so you could piece it together more. I know they showed some flashbacks to show where we could pick up clues but it was not exactly a trail of breadcrumbs. Also, didn’t we just had storylines with Mirror Mistress and dopplegangers acting evil? This is what it reminded me of when Cecile was taken over.
The actress did a really good job of portraying the fear she had and the worry about it coming out. She showed real development to face her problems.
Now, can we get back to the Flash? His name is in the title of the show after all.

Now, I have mentioned before that I just could not get into Supergirl, but that is no reason for her not to be referenced at all. Don’t get me wrong, I think this show is wonderful, showing a rather realistic depiction of a family and how brothers act, even with superheroes. I also like the revelation of who Morgan Edge was, almost had a Brightburn look and feel to it. It would make sense if he was hunted and experimented on in his early life that he would be resentful to humanity. He did work the long plan though and worked with these humans as a businessman as he worked towards his ultimate goal. Especially since he would have ti hide his powers.
But I digress…they really need to explain why this show seems set outside of the main Arrowverse. There is no mention of any other characters, and especially Kara. It is almost like maybe this is not Earth-Prime which would help explain it. I am trying to remember if we saw Superman after Crisis reset the world. We saw Kara and the Flash and others but I can’t remember. I know before Crisis happenned, Lois was pregnant, but when Crisis resolved, they had two teenage sons not just one child. Is it possible either this is another earth or even in the future from that time in which case maybe in those 13 years or so, something happenned to Kara?


Batwoman - I would prefer the Kate Kane sitch be wrapped up and she doesn’t join the team. Whatever her mission post memory return would leave an opening for a surprise appearance down the line, but I won’t be holding my breath.

I was unaware of the BTS of Diggle rejecting the ring. I look forward to seeing this play out.

Legends - The fact that there are no scars on Sara means she might be a clone. I don’t see this Bishop guy having scars removed when cloning a new body is pretty much his jam. But let’s see this play out.

If the body is a fake, real Sara must be on ice and my best speculation is Bishop using Sara clones to learn how to beat her/win her over.

if the body is the real Sara, Bishop’s cloning technology includes the memories and personality of the person being cloned. So, if all of real Sara’s memories and personality are in the no scar clone, isn’t it still Sara?

I like this speculation.

@Row.Harper LMD Coulson’s arc was a highlight of that last season. also the grandson of fitz and simmons and his stream analogy regarding time travel gets an honorable mention.


Same with Ryan as Batwoman: this is her first season. and she has to be her own Batwoman. My speculation is that there is some Kane family closure plus whatever other bumps and bruises collected along the way. Including and certainly not limited to the death of Ocean.

i was getting a weird editing conflict, so it just seemed easier to double post.


It was! It was also done in a way that was way better than Sara’s reveal.

Here’s my weekly Legendary Island of Misfits summary:


I probably should have followed your non-spoilery lead.

With respect to Sara, I think they wanted the audience to feel what she would feel when confronted with what everyone is grappling with.


To be fair, w/ Sara’s speech to Bishop right before the big reveal, I do think it’s clear the show is agreeing w/ you on that point – that Sara’s scars and other flaws are still perfect to her, and it reinforces Bishop as the bad guy by getting rid of those things that meant so much

So long as Bishop’s cloning technology remains intact, though I’m not sure if I see that surviving the season. If it does get destroyed when he’s taken down, then Sara and Ava would be more mortal then they’ve ever been :open_mouth:

True, though I feel like it’s still accurate to call it a retcon as well since it does change how you’d view Cecile in earlier seasons knowing that she went through all that hell

I guess we don’t know 100%, though I had assumed like most that this is still taking place present day around when the other shows are happening. But I’ve also seen people speculate more and more about this, w/ some people saying that the boys were actually still babies during Crisis, Supergirl will pull an Arrow and kill off Kara by the finale and S&L takes place years later when the boys are teenagers. But even if that’s all true, it wouldn’t mean that Kara never existed. And if this does happen to take place right before Kara’s pod came to earth, that’d put this show nearly 20 years in the past, and so Jonathan and Jordan would be in their 30s now, which wouldn’t line up w/ Lois still looking the same at the end of Crisis. If this was the case, she’d have to be aged up somewhat. But then again, this show has already contradicted the end of Crisis by giving Supes the red heat vision instead of blue, so who really knows at this point? Not me

And for the 2nd time. Jonathan might not have powers (yet?), but I’d say he already has a nemesis

Exactly, and that’s the big difference that I don’t think has really been pointed out on the show so far. W/out someone like Lois to keep him grounded and remind him of his humanity, it makes more sense that this alternate earth Supes would be more susceptible to Edge’s schemes

Idk, he’s definitely the type to be prepared for all sorts of eventualities, so the more we learned about him, the more I believed that he’d be the type of person to have a cure like that on hand. Though that belief also made the twist all the more shocking

Ooo, that’s an interesting point. Considering the many times Sara has died and been revived already, maybe it could be revealed that those were also “resets” of her life like this. It’d certainly soften the blow to discover that this actually isn’t even the 1st time she’s been through it

I definitely get the logic behind this and I’m still kinda conflicted on it. On the one hand, it’d be really cool to see Kate take up a new identity from the comics, and Wallis Day is awesome so I couldn’t really complain too much about seeing more of her. But on the other hand, I feel like 1 of the main flaws of the Arrowverse shows is that the longer they go on, the more they lose focus on the lead as these teams continue to grow. That kind of a moot point for something like Legends, which is already mostly an ensemble show, but it’s definitely affected Arrow, Flash and Supergirl in negative ways. I appreciate how Batwoman has been able to keep the main team to just 2 or 3 people this whole time and subvert that, but if Kate and maybe even Sophie (re)join the team, you could start to see it slipping into that territory. Not that it’s objectively impossible to lose focus on the lead if it happens, but I’d still be weary given the network history

You heard right! And it’s definitely not GL. In fact, there’s already been an official look at his character in 2 weeks! Given the western setting and big mustache, I think he’s gonna be Bass Reeves


I guess you could say they’ve been laying the groundwork of this since she got hit by that psychic lightning bolt, but we also haven’t had any reason to be suspicious of her until that previous episode. It definitely would’ve hit harder if there had been more buildup

Well we’re gonna have to wait an extra week on that. The next episode is Allegra-centric w/ the teaser saying that Flash is “off the grid” :slightly_frowning_face:

Oh yeah, he was part of that final fight against the Anti-Monitor on Earth-Prime, and we had that quick scene of him and Lois talking about Jonathan and Jordan afterwards. So yeah, none of this really makes any sense. I know some of the writers have tried saying that because COVID threw off their schedules so much they couldn’t really reference the other shows so as not to spoil anything, but that logic just doesn’t hold up. Not only has every other Arrowverse show made some sort of reference to another this year, but you can make vague, general mentions/references to Kara w/out spoiling something big like her being trapped in the Phantom Zone

If that does happen, I wouldn’t be surprised to see her make an occasional appearance. Wallis Day has been really excited to take on this role, so I can’t imagine she’d be opposed to returning

That’s the main argument, isn’t it? Because it’s like she is but she technically isn’t. You don’t really think about this too much when you’re copying data from 1 drive to another, but humans are far more complex. Unless you’re Bishop, apparently, then they’re only moderately more complex. I’m sure this debate on the show is only beginning

It does make the twist all the more powerful when we can see her reaction at the same time as processing our own

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Ugh… I hate that this makes sense to me. I still hope they don’t kill her off though. That’d be rough. :frowning:

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