Lack of Cassandra Cain

@Dr.Doggo Precisely!

Cassie is a great character, loved her in Detective comics and it great that she’s in The outsiders currently.

@merriman do you know how to watch Batman 1966 I can’t find it anywhere?

Its on the Roku Channel right now. Filmrise too I believe


Just for funsies, I’m going to go ahead and recommend watching Linkara’s Cassandra Cain retrospective, which recently concluded. It’s an entertaining look at the characters history and definitely worth watching if you’re a fan of the character.
Linkara seems to have a more positive reception to Tynion’s iteration of Cass than I, but to each their own.

Isn’t Conner Hawke the first Asian character to lead his own series in DC?

I like Tynion’s work on Orphan in Detective Comics. I know there was some stuff in Eternal that controversial, but I haven’t read that series in its entirety.

Connor Hawke, the first? There’s no way… that can be…

Checks the archives


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I thought Conner was half Native American? checks DC Database wiki Okay, so he’s part African American, part Caucasian, part Korean. So maybe he was the first character of Asian descent with an ongoing, but Cass was the first Batgirl with her own ongoing solo title.

I haven’t read Tynion’s 'Tec, and I’ve heard some people saying he does a fine job with her–but others not quite as satisfied. After B&RE, I just wasn’t interested in an extension of the same formula that seemed to get so much about the character so wrong. I look at his take on Cass meeting Shiva, being throttled and weeping, saying she “won’t kill”, and I compare that to pre-Flashpoint, where she stands dignified, confident, and says, without a break between words, “I don’t kill.” I think there are important differences between the two that Tynion just missed.
What he seemed to get correct, didn’t seem like anything particularly spectacular, like any writer could’ve done it. It’s been suggested that I review some of Tynion’s run for my show, but–oof.

What’s your show?

I greatly enjoyed Tynion’s run on Detective Comics in general. It seemed to enjoy the legacy of the Bat Family which I appreciate. I haven’t read much B&EE, but I like Tynion’s writing in general. Whatever Tynion did to Cassandra, I bet it was better than what Lobdell did to Red Robin.

So I knew some DC trivia the great and powerful HCQ didn’t know? I can now die a proud man.

I’m not sure why I even knew that. I’ve read only a few issues where Conner Hawke even played a significant role and I think I may have read a single issue of his time as Green Arrow. Maybe two. Still, I was right.

It might be because of wikis. I used to read ComicVine character wikis anytime I encountered a new character, but I eventually stopped because I was constantly getting spoilers. It’s fun to know a character’s back story, but less fun when you are later reading that backstory and know what will happen.

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The show’s called “Taking Issue”. If you’re interested, do a YouTube search for “Angry Spork”. The result with the little spork avatar like I have on here, will be the channel to check out.

I can see some appeal to Tynion’s writing, but there are a lot of, for lack of a better term, structural problems. Some characters and relationships don’t get much building, they tend to just happen. Harper met Cass in one issue, tried bossing her around the next, and after that, they were declared the bestest of friends for no other reason than they were in proximity to each other. Dick, Tim and Jason all talking to her like she’s an idiot, Steph saying Cass was “barely a person”, which still enrages me. Tynion’s frequent portrayal of piles of dead children. Making David Cain a brainless henchman. Then there are some things that seem to be there just as distraction for his shortcomings, or because he just wanted it there. I might’ve picked up 'Tec at the start of Rebirth if it’d started with the complete erasure of his retcons to Cass and Steph’s origins, but naturally he wasn’t going to do that. Give Tim his good origin, sure, he didn’t work on that, but what he screwed up, that’s okay. No hypocrisy there.

As for “better” than what Lobdell did, I can’t say for sure. Didn’t read Lobdell’s take, but as far as I know, he kind of made Tim this arrogant general super-genius that went from one girl’s lips to the next, which really isn’t Tim. Previously, he’d been the most chaste and mature character in comics…and then Tynion had him boink Steph at the earliest opportunity, even though those versions didn’t know each other long. But my biggest beef is how Tynion, who claims to love Cass, made everything about her relate back to Harper Row in some way. It never really added anything to Cassie’s story, so much as seemed like a novel little connection, like when George Lucas retconned so many classic Star Wars characters as knowing each other in the Prequel Trilogy. It didn’t make sense, but oh, it was neat for five seconds.
I’ll add that Tim wasn’t exactly treated the best in the Eternals, either. He was a total clod whenever Row was involved–but then, everyone was a clod for her sake. For a guy that frequently shoehorns in poetry, even when it feels out of place, he sure failed to see the artistry in how she was initially introduced.

I won’t lie to you, I’ve gone on and on about this on my show. From reviewing three Eternal issues an episode to repeated references to how much I hate the retcons in non-Tynion related material. I guess the episodes to watch to really get how I feel, succinctly (and if you don’t mind missing all the jokes in between), I’d recommend either the Batman & Robin Eternal finale, or the 100th episode from earlier this year.

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I might check it out.

I can see why you’ve been frustrated about Cassie, and I’ll agree I have observed one trope of Tynion’s writing that relationships just kind of happen offscreen. I came in about 15 issue in on his Tec run and really enjoyed it, and one of the things I liked was the way it utilized the relationships between the Bat Family which had developed a bit since I last saw them. I hadn’t been following DC’s modern material at the time and assumed it was based on slow character growth. Now I’ve gone back on this app and read his run from the beginning, and it turns out a lot of it is just kind of new. Same sort of thing as you report. Take Orphan and Clayface. They are shown to have a very close relationship in later issues, but earlier, they have only the brief moments of friendship. It’s there, but it’s like a little hint and of something and then I guess we are to assume more happens off panel. I’m not sure this is a flaw, but it is a stylistic choice that committed rub many the wrong way. I’d prefer a little more on panel development myself.

In addition to what you mentioned, there are some other problems with Lobdell’s Tim Drake. Bigger even. In his version which I’m not sure has ever been officially retconned, Tim tries to find out who Batman is because he thinks so highly of himself that he sees it as the only real challenge. Tim fails to discover Batman’s identity, but he does get Bruce’s attention, Bats tells Tim to buzz off, and Tim instead steals a bunch of money from Penguin and donates it to charitable causes. Penguin finds out who stole from him and sends Tim to his house to kill him and his family. Batman saves him, sends his parents into hiding and then changes Tim’s name (if I recall correctly, Tim Drake is actually an alias for his new ID) and adopts him as a son and Robin because reasons.

So many things are wrong with this I don’t know if I can even explain, but I probably will later. It’s just trash on every level. Hate it.

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There are somethings you can get away with not showing, just like there are (rare) times when telling works instead of showing. But Barbara and Steph were probably one of the closest to Cass, and it took time for those relationships to grow. You saw frustration, but also [platonic] affection. I think what saves this “instant friendship” deal is the visual representation. If Cass hugging Clayface looks nice, and has an “awww” factor, then some will forgive it. I’ll admit, the panels of Cass fighting alongside Harper and Grayson in the opera house, or Cass with Harper and “Spoiler Alert”, look neat on a visual level. But I can’t ignore the problems that preceded those events, regardless of the initial hype for Rebirth as an “apology”.

I saw some snippets of Tim being Mr. Oz’ captive, and it seemed to reaffirm most of the original iteration; he saw Batman going down a dark path after the death of Jason Todd, pleaded with Nightwing to help him, but ultimately became Robin himself (instead of Red Robin from the get-go because Todd’s"legacy was intimidating" or something). I don’t know if that changes any of his other poorer traits from the New52, like his egomania or convenient incompetence whenever Harper was around (seriously, dude built his parents a protective robot house, but he’s “jealous of Harper’s gear”?!), but that may be a low priority for people at DC. The more they can sweep under the rug, the better. But I consider ignoring their mistakes to be lazy writing.

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