Well, again, the 70s were realistic relative to the 60s. Relative being the key word. Are you actually making the argument that there wasn’t a push toward realism within the 80s superhero deconstruction books like DKR? If so, that’s a bold claim.
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I said DKR was not realism. Following the influence on Dark Knight Returns what happened is they killed of Jason in an incredibly unrealistic story. Then they went on a killing spree due to A Death in the Family’s financial success.
This resulted in high death counts in stories that are not realistic at all, and never will be like Emerald Knights and Zero Hour.
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Okay. Well, going back to my original point, I would agree that DKR was not realism. I just said it tried to present itself as such. I would probably go on to say that the “killing sprees” were also attempts to present “realism,” but would probably also agree that they weren’t. Again, though, maintaining that the concept of realism is relative in superhero comics. Is a Death in the Family realism? Probably not, but it’s closer to that than, say, Brainiac’s first appearance. A lot of those grim, gritty things happened in an attempt to get closer to realism.
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No, they were to be closer to events, like deaths. If they want realism stories about children dressed in red, green and yellow fighting supervillains with a guy dressed like a bat with bat shaped shruikens is never going to be what come to mind.
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Again, I think you’re missing the word relative here. Sure, I concede that superhero comics will never be pure realism (nor would I want them to be). However, through the decades and especially in the 80s there was a push to inject more “realism” in superhero comics. That’s generally well-accepted. If you disagree with that, okay, but that is a bold claim.
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For me, TDKR is like an early punk rock song. In its time, it was shocking and transgressive and helped break the dominant perceptions of the form, even among those who weren’t regular consumers of the genre.
But, as time goes on, the form still changes. Punk becomes New Wave becomes Alternative becomes Emo becomes et cetera. What used to be edgy and shocking is now something your dad sometimes puts on to embarrass you in front of your friends.
We’re still feeling the cultural waves from TDKR’s impact, but calling directly back to it is starting to feel as outdated as a guitarist who only knows three chords.
Again, only my opinion. And if you don’t like that one, I have others.
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When was the last time you actually read this book or watched the movies?
This does not exist as his speech was about the possibility that FDR knew that Japan was going to hit pearl harbor not the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. Now the Russians do fire a nuke at the united states, that gets deflected by Superman I think you’re getting these two mixed up.
Actually, Batman Year one, Allstar Batman and robin the boy wonder, and Batman DKR now take part in the same universe Earth 31…to a point as really ASBR takes place in more earth 31-2 as there is a slight recon of bruces age when his parents die, in year one he is 8 but in ASBR he is 5.
Also, almost the entire GCPD and court system were corrupt in Gotham, the only known good cop is Jim Gordan. However, by the time of DKR, most of GCPD has been cleaned up.
There is really only three in the entire story a pimp/drug dealer with mafia connections. The group of kids robing an apartment…does have a young black kid. but also a Hispanic kid and a white kid. if the idea was they deserve what comes to them…Batman would have not taken a beating from the other two, he would have let the kid who fell drop to his death.
Catwoman is the third, she moves from dominatrix thief to and bruce literally lets her go.
They were Hippies/student activists similar to Oliver Queen.
No the mutant leader is really a prototype of Bane. He is a Psychopath with delusions of grandeur and a megalomaniacal attitude. His goal was to take over Gotham City…which had he succeeded, the government would have likely sent superman after him to kill instead of Batman.
the closest moment of excessive force I can think of involving a cop is when gordan shoots a member of the mutant gang…the gang member is literally armed with a heavy machine gun and looking to kill Gordan. by this point the Mutants have been established as people like the joker, killing for fun and have started killing kids. So I would say shooting to kill was the Right Choice for gordan to make.
Is batman brutal in this…yes, is it excessive…not when compared to Superman.
The one who uses the most excessive force is actually Superman, who literally kills in this, and is more than willing to kill Batman…because he was ordered to by the government.
Rehabilitation involves the one being rehabilitated Genuinely wanting to change. Harvey wanted to die and take as many people with him as he could. he fakes healing. Joker just wants to kill a lot of people and push batman to kill him. he fakes change. Bruce is one of the reformists and he lives.
However, we also have a genuine reform Rouge in the form of Catwoman in DNR all be it she does run an escort service.
this is really more a look at mental health in the 80s.
…
However, is a reflection of the golden age of comics. DKSA is a reflection of the craziness of the silver age, well DKRIII is a look at the copper/modern age.
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Yeah, it has been a while since I’ve read DKR. You are correct, I got Gordon’s speech a bit wrong. It is about the Pearl Harbor attack. I didn’t mix it up with anything. Just misremembered. I still think the speech stands as an example of the “ends justifying the means” approach to law and order. But, yeah, sure I misremembered the topic of the speech a bit.
I never talked about corrupt cops in DKR. Someone brought up the ASBR thing and I acknowledged that there were corrupt police in Year One as well. So… I’m not sure what your point is here.
To be fair, I didn’t go after Miller’s depiction of African Americans in DKR. That aspect of his work is a bit worse in Daredevil and Year One. As for your examples, yeah, he showed mercy sometimes…
Who were portrayed as clueless whiners and negligent parents.
Sure. Like a barbarian king or the Goth’s outside the walls of Rome. Being a barbarian leader like that makes you the worst enemy of the “law and order” of your society. Society may be corrupt but it’s not built on a “might makes right” principle (more of a “wealth makes right” one, but that’s a different topic).
I never said the excessive force was done by the cops. It was actually done by Batman. I’m thinking the “I believe you” scene, how he took down the mutant leader, and even how he took down Joker (despite the fact he elected not to kill him). There are plenty of examples of Batman NOT showing mercy.
I’m not exactly convinced that what Selina did would be considered rehabilitation by Miller. Regardless, I don’t think this was a look at mental health in the 80s so much as a parody of it.
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Sorry, I was not clear but I was talking about Year One here…there really are not any African American criminals in DNK.
KC’s parents were, Oliver was not…well no Oliver is a somewhat negligent father too.
…
Very bad example as the Goths actually wanted to work with the Romans to defeat the barbarian king that drove them from their lands… he was known as Atilla the hun. and the Romans drove them to attack…Rome also is a horrible example as they constantly broke treaties during the late Roman Empire.
Om, I literally just watched the first film and am watching the second part now. ya, the mutants were…PLANING TO FLUSH A BABY DOWN THE TOILET, THAT KIND OF EVIL DOES NOT DESERVE MERCY!!! The mutant leader’s Brutal beating was necessary for the framework to break up the massive Mutant gange numbering in the 1000’s planning on assaulting GCPD to free their leader. had he showed mercy that would have been interpreted as weakness by the mutants.
Ok Joker… let’s look at what the joker did in the book had literally just killed his shrink, and at least 100 people, mind-controlled, manipulated, and then at minimum beaten the woman Bruce loves, took a child hostage. killed he killed around 20 pepole in the tunnel of love too. also in their fight DID JOKER SHOW BRUCE MERCY??? AS BRUCE BROKE JOKERS BEEPING NECK, JOKER WAS STABBING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. JOKER DID NOT DESERVE ANY MERCY, HAS LITERALLY THE BEST PLOT ARMOR IN ENTERTAINMENT HISTORY!!! and yes I did feel like that needed to be yelled.
Yet when Bruce was trying to stop the Joker from killing the studio audience Bruce showed mercy to the cops. bruce showed mercy to two faces goons.
Yet look at what Superman does…he literally destroyed the USSR’s fleet in this. bruce shows considerably more mercy than Clark.
He stops a subway train to save a man…likely killing some of the people on the people on the train. Superman killed thousands in this time, without mercy.
Selina for all intent and purpose is reformed. not getting into that as it Has been retconned out of her past.
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Then it’s probably the pimp I’m thinking of, in particular. That stereotype pops up a few times in Miller’s work.
I think the portrayal of Carrie Kelley’s parents is just indicative of how Miller feels about “liberals.” It’s not like Oliver comes off glowing in DKR either.
So, you’re saying the Romans didn’t consider the Goths barbarians because they had a team-up against the Huns? That broke down into further war between the Goths and the Romans. Also, Rome is a bad example because they were an imperfect empire? Hate to break it to you, but so is the US. Not sure how this attack of my examples invalidates my point.
I’m quoting just this section because the entire piece you wrote there is pretty long. Here’s the thing: I think I’m talking about Miller and you’re talking about Batman. You’re defending Batman’s choices in the context of the story while I’m critiquing the story Miller told. If you’re telling a story, you can justify a lot of things. Miller used sensationalism about crime to justify Batman’s brutality in fighting it. Basically, he exaggerated the actions of the criminals to show why Batman had to hurt them. From what you just wrote, it looks like it worked. My point is that he was doing this to justify the use of brutality against criminals as a whole.
I’m also not sure why Superman keeps coming up as I have not mentioned him once during this debate.
Selina’s life seems really very sad in DKR. If that’s what Miller sees as a successful rehabilitation, I think that further proves my point.
Again, if you really like DKR, great! I did too at one point. As I’ve changed, my feelings about it have too, and the things I have mentioned are what brought me there.
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Om I don’t think you have read Any of Frank Miller’s Sin City. or you would not be playing up the law and order angle.
No it’s a bad example because the western roman empire was Massively corrupt by this time and did not fall but collapsed.
Neither was Bruce, that happens when your son is murdered. Selina had to watch the man she loved fall apart. Do you know who killed Jason…The joker as revealed in The Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade.
I keep bringing Superman up because what he does in the comics is far worse than literally anything Bruce does and at the behest of the US Government. The view of Miller in DKR and its Sequels is Anti Government, not Law and Order.
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You mean Miller’s anthology series about crime and how really bad things happen to the people who do crime? Yes, I’ve read it.
So you’re saying the Western Roman Empire didn’t fall to the Goth warlord Odoacer? And their lands weren’t overrun by Germanic barbarians? They just became corrupt and it… ended? But, we’re straying. My original point is that “barbarians” are outside of “law and order” in the eyes of society. I’m sorry you didn’t like my metaphor.
Aside from the fact that Miller’s portrayal of Superman in DKR is one of the worst portrayals of the character ever (which is another rabbit hole that I don’t have the energy for), I think his and Reagan’s part in the story is to communicate how Miller feels about big, Federal government. Most conservatives are against big, Federal government and some see Federal laws as interfering with States and their ability to govern and police themselves. So, it may be an Anti-Federal government story, but I still think it’s a law and order story. Batman is playing the role of a local sheriff and that corrupt, old Federal government is there trying to stop him from doing the things he needs to do to maintain order.
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His Clark is a tragic hero who gave up his ideals to preserve law and order. He decided that law and order is his whoke identity now. That is why he never goes by “Superman.”
The Roman Empire ended due to being the target of everybody. Constantinople could not stand forever. Considering it took cannons to destroy a BC empire they should be really proud.
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*woke
And, generally speaking, law and order isn’t a woke culture thing. From what I remember, he gave up his ideals to protect the world from nuclear destruction and not law and order. But, I see what you were trying to do, and good effort. Still, though, bad portrayal of Supes.
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Of course, Clark goes to bed early to wake up early, while I sleep all day. This contrasts his order vs my disorder.
“Whoke” was supposed to be “whole.”
He gave them up to be an active hero after we were banned following Joker eating Jason and Brainiac blackmailing him by holding Kandor hostage. One of many reasons this is the best Clark ever (except for Gods and Monsters of course).
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And he “had” to be an active hero because he was worried about nuclear destruction, right? …Anyway, this is not the best Superman ever and helped inspire many other bad characterizations of him.
Edit: I do remember the whole Kandor/Brainiac thing, but I believe that was established in the sequel to DKR.
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No, he was overconfident he could stop that. It was that the government still allowed him to save people reasoning that was worth changing his ideals so much.
Watch what you say about my best friend. We are very close. Nothing makes you closer than breaking each other’s ribs. That is the type of pals we are.
Yes, one thing I love is all the ambiguity. It reminds me of reading Shakespeare.
Ooh, we are trashing Injustice now.
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I wasn’t thinking of that one specifically, but now that you mention it…
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Oh yeah, isn’t Frank doing some more Sin City stories soon?
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Om if anything it escalated things. clark’s actions destroying the Russian fleet caused them to fire the cold bringer in the first place. then Clark instead of heat visioning it to destroy the destination device just deflects it into space causing an EMP that resulted in a nuclear winter in the united states, and massive rioting in the US likely resulting in high death tolls.
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