[World of Wonder] WONDER WOMAN (1987-) #15-19 & JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #2 ✨

World of Wonder Week 6!

We will be resuming our reading of the legendary run by George Pérez. We will also be continuing Justice League Dark as the Witching Hour approaches.


• Stop by to share your thoughts, reactions, and answers to discussion questions as you read the story.

Spoiler discussion begins RIGHT NOW and lasts until next Wednesday (9/11) evening!



:sparkle: WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #15-19 :sparkle:

  1. What are your opinions on this version of Silver Swan?

  2. Do you like the Wonder Woman/Superman pairing in general? What do you think about Wonder Woman’s feelings toward Superman in these issues?

  3. Are you a fan of the New Gods being involved in stories featuring Wonder Woman and vice versa?

  4. What did you enjoy about this version of Circe?

:sparkle: JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #2 :sparkle:

  1. How are you feeling about the team dynamics? Are there any interactions you want to see more from?

  2. How do you feel about the origins of magic as described in this issue?

  3. What do you predict the Witch Mark could lead to?

:nerd_face: Share your thoughts on the reading overall and let’s discuss :nerd_face:

:dizzy:Links to First Issues:





What’s cool is that when we did the Perez stuff for the Book Club, I had previously read all that stuff months beforehand via comixology, so with this, I’m now going to be reading this fairly blind. I’m pretty excited. :slight_smile:


@Jay_Kay Woo! It’s pretty cool being able to read something for the first time with all of you and discuss with all of you. These issues look good :slight_smile:

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Superman’s in this week’s selection, huh?

pulls up a chair and begins reading


@Vroom Haha, yes… My trap worked. Vroom has now shown up and is reading this week’s World of Wonder selection.


  1. What are your opinions on this version of Silver Swan?

Well, honestly, I haven’t seen any of the other versions. I do like the tragedy with this character, though. Armbruster is a bit bland as villains go, and he’s the real bad guy, so that’s a bit disappointing, but Silver Swan herself is fairly engaging.

  1. Do you like the Wonder Woman/Superman pairing in general? What do you think about Wonder Woman’s feelings toward Superman in these issues?

No. Not at all.

Accordingly, in these issues, I… actually do kind of like it. Diana was raised on an island with, essentially, nobody but mother figures around. So while I think the pairing has zero chemistry, it’s an interesting and believable bit of characterization for Diana that she would develop this kind of immature schoolgirl crush on somebody early on, and Superman is just a nice, charming guy.

In this series, Diana is always written as someone who is, in a lot of ways, mature well beyond her years. She’s selfless, understanding, and level-headed. But in other ways, she’s led a very sheltered life, and when that shows up, it sort of balances her out and keeps her characterization from just being “is perfect.”

  1. Are you a fan of the New Gods being involved in stories featuring Wonder Woman and vice versa?

Honestly, they’re not really in here all that much. Darkseid’s attack on Olympus sets in motion some important events for the Olympians themselves, but as far as I remember, the reasoning behind the attack hasn’t really been followed up on even as of issue #53 (which is where I’ve read to). In principle, I think the idea has some merit. When DC characters (other than Mister Miracle, Big Barda, Orion, etc.) start interacting with the Fourth World, they can kind of feel like guest stars in their own books because of the sheer scale of Kirby’s mythos, but I could see it at least being the basis for a single major story arc.

  1. What did you enjoy about this version of Circe?

This arc had an interesting sort of horror theme, with Circe as sort of a creeping influence in the background, so that was pretty cool.

  1. How are you feeling about the team dynamics? Are there any interactions you want to see more from?

I’m not really sure yet, honestly. I think my big issue is that on this magic-themed team, a majority of the members are not actual magic users. And sure, the fact that they’re outsiders (but they’re not all outsiders; that would make for an excessively wordy hashtag) is a plot point, but I feel like since the magic users are the ones who are being directly affected, the stakes are higher for them.

The tension between Wonder Woman and Zatanna was interesting. Maybe it’s just because they’re the characters here that I was most interested in to begin with, but I like it anyway. In fact, I always like seeing characters who have theoretically been teammates a lot (though maybe not in the new continuity?), but haven’t really been written as interacting with each other very much.

  1. How do you feel about the origins of magic as described in this issue?

Maybe I missed something (my eyes tend to kind of glaze over when I get to wall-of-exposition pages; it happens even with good books, so I understand that these things are kind of a necessary evil, but they’re an evil none the less), but there didn’t seem to be that much that was noteworthy. The only thing is that I’m curious how this relates to the gods. They have generally (or at least sometimes) been written as magical entities of some sort, but they clearly don’t share a common origin with human sorcerers.

  1. What do you predict the Witch Mark could lead to?

I also don’t recall seeing the words “Witch Mark” anywhere in the issue, so either I was a very inattentive reader, or… more like Which Mark, am I right? In all seriousness, I tried looking for it on DC Database, but all I found were references to the Weather Wizard and a horror comic from 1970.

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@BatJamags You’re right. They didn’t call it the witch mark in the book. I read this about a year ago, they just called it a mark. My bad. Too bad we can’t edit our posts.

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@nu52 What can I say? I saw mention of Superman and that just lassoed me in. rimshot


“What are your opinions on this version of Silver Swan?”

It’s interesting. I’m not sure I fully get what her power-set is. Is it supposed to be something similar to Black Canary, but with a flight suit? Is it a flight suit? What’s making her durable enough to go head to head with Wonder Woman? That part isn’t really explained, though with the way Perez has weaved things around, I wouldn’t be surprised if we get more explanation for it when she gets back from her adventure in Greece.

I did like the relationship Swan had with her pen pal. Her pain in seeing Swan turn into a weapon felt real. Maybe it’s just me, but I got a vibe of more than just friendship from how close they were, like if it wasn’t the 80s, they would be more explicit about an infatuation, if that makes sense.

I agree with @BatJamags that the guy controlling her is pretty bland on his own. Stereotypical “woman do what me say 'cuz me man.” Of course creeps like that can exist and that’s kind of the stuff that WW was created to combat/resolve in stories, but he felt less like a character and more like a plot device. Again, maybe more will be built on Swan and all this stuff later on.

“Do you like the Wonder Woman/Superman pairing in general? What do you think about Wonder Woman’s feelings toward Superman in these issues?”

I’ve liked it in alternate histories like Kingdom Come and the Dark Knight universe. I even didn’t hate the idea of them doing it in the New 52 continuity – they were both single at the time, so why not do something completely different for a little while? It’s not like they were always going to stick together for any longer than a couple of years anyway.

Here, I was a little “eh” on it. My big problem wasn’t that Diana was crushing on Superman, but rather the kind of timid, demure way she acted on it. One of the things that I’ve HATED about Post-Crisis Diana up until the New 52 was the whole “virgin princess” angle they put on her. It made her feel rather immature and felt less like a real character trait and more “we can’t decide on a romantic partner that’s good enough for her.” I mean, she’s a grown-ass woman, presumably could have had relationships with different women on Themyskira, why would she suddenly be a wilting flower just because a person she’s interested in has a penis? The scene with Vanessa/“Nessie”* where the 13 year old felt more worldly talking about boys than an amazon Warrior that’s at least 21 was kind of embarrassing.

  • By the way, did anyone else get confused at first with the “Nessie” nickname? First, it feels weird that Diana would have nicknames for people (in a similar vein, I never liked that Diana referred to Superman as “Kal” or “Kal-El”), second, I couldn’t figure out how you got Nessie from Vanessa at the time, and third, when I think “Nessie,” I only think of the Lock Ness Monster.

“Are you a fan of the New Gods being involved in stories featuring Wonder Woman and vice versa?”

I agree with @BatJamags that they didn’t really factor too much into these issues (in fact, with the talk about them in these issues, I felt like I missed a few issues or something, maybe I would get the stuff with the Olympians more if I read that Legends crossover). In fact, I have to admit, the explanation given here on how the New Gods fit in didn’t quite make sense to me. I don’t know if I was reading it too late and was too tired to process it (it has happened before), but is the idea that the New Gods came from energies/souls of the dead Titans that the Olympian Gods killed? That part I’m not sure I like. I like the idea of factor all the different pantheons both in our world and in the DCU, but having them spawn from the Olympians feel ham-fisted to me.

That said, I have enjoyed the New Gods in Wonder Woman before, specifically in the Brian Azzarello run.

“What did you enjoy about this version of Circe?”

I dug her history and how she was connected to the history of the Amazons. It really makes her feel like a deeper arch-nemesis than even Ares. The whole angle of “if one of us dies the power will go to Diana” kind of reminded me of a sort of Harry Potter vs Voldermort situation that was kind of interesting. Also, very fitting that we’re talking about this segment of books in relation to Justice League Dark, where what I’ve seen, the connection between Diana and Hecate is far more explicit.


The opening on the devastation of Olympus made me wonder “what the hell did i miss?”, but if it is part of the legends event, then I will read it once i am done with Metal. but other than the aftermath of something i’ve yet to read (or may have read when it was first published), i am not against any fourth world action.

And of Silver Swan, I am unaware of any other versions of this character. This arc might have been Perez playing with some of the underlying Wonder Woman themes.

When it comes to Superman and Wonder Woman, while I’ve yet to read the actual panel(s): when Superman and Wonder Woman kiss it sounds like marble rubbing on steel.

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By the way, Perez does get back to the Silver Swan plot, but it takes him forever to do it. I think it was in issues 51 and 52, and he picks up as though the reader remembers who all the characters are. Not sure what happened with that.

I’ve been reading Byrne’s Superman (catching up on my Superbooks so I can fit them into my big Post-Crisis readthrough), and there are some out-of-nowhere scenes of him crushing on Diana, which doesn’t make nearly as much sense as the reverse, especially since he’s already juggling Lois, Cat Grant, and sort of Lana Lang as potential love interests at that point.

I still think it doesn’t totally make sense for Diana to have had any relationships on Themyscira (at least, not Pre-Flashpoint; I think a lot of the island’s backstory got shuffled around thereafter), because everyone there is her mother’s age and knew her since birth. Not necessarily impossible, but odd enough that her not having experience with this sort of thing strikes me as believable. Of course, that’s only as it relates to early in her career, so treating Perez’s run as an extended Year One story, it makes sense there, but later writers probably did push it too far.

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@AntLeon – I’m not saying this about you specifically, but I never understood why people took that whole “marble and steel” line so literally. I always took it as Waid using metaphor, both for their invulnerability and for their mindsets at the time.

@BatJamags – Really, that long? That’s kind of surprising, but looking at the covers it does seem like when the book doesn’t go all mythological or cosmic, it’s focusing more on Julia and Vanessa. I wonder if considering his run ends at 61 maybe Perez was thinking “maybe I ought to wrap some of this other stuff up.”

I can kind of see where Clark could feel something for Diana. Outside of the obvious of, you know, “gorgeous woman in a one-piece,” I think they have a lot in common in terms of being one of a kind in the world, having similar power-sets, and that kind of thing. I can imagine that it does feel way out there reading the Superman books on their own when she doesn’t play that big a role, though.

I can see your point about having some of them raise her being a problem, I just think that after a while that would dissipate, and there would be some who wouldn’t be as involved in her raising. I do agree that other writers do this far worse, it’s just one of those things where it’s the first time in this club that it’s really been around, so I decided to bring it up.

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Now for JLD #2:

“How are you feeling about the team dynamics? Are there any interactions you want to see more from?”

I’m digging it – I like how Diana has brought this team together, it’s actually kind of rare to see her fully take on a leadership role, I think. Unless I’m really missing something. At this point, I’m not sure if there is any specific interaction I want to see in particular, I just want to see more in general.

“How do you feel about the origins of magic as described in this issue?”

I think it’s interesting that the origins of it come from skeptics, scientists and explorers of the time becoming forever altered by discovering it. Overall I’m liking how this is kind of deconstructing the Lords of Order. I always found it odd that Order was considered the standard side of good in the DC magical universe: I mean, sure a lot of things require a certain amount of order to thrive, and you don’t want too much chaos in the world, but how many horrific things have been done in this world in the name of Order?

“What do you predict the Witch Mark could lead to?”

Considering I’ve read in the past of what The Witching Hour is about, I think that would be kind of cheating. :smiley: But like I said with the previous questions, I find it interesting that they’re reapproaching the idea of Diana being connected to Hecate, but at a different angle.

Now that i finished #19, i’m going to need time to digest that. And to tackle JLD #2.

No offense taken b/c i like the idea of it as a literal sound. When my comic book savant friend told me of it, my mindset started with if Superman is the steel in that equation, Wonder Woman is the marble. My friend was stuck on the sound, I liked that it was also that layer of metaphor.

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What’s funny is that in marble, one of the impurities that shapers for it try to take out is…clay. Of course, “steel and ceramic” doesn’t quite work as well. :smiley:

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Curses, JLD #2 still looms.

This version of Circe is quite creepy. I like how she factors into the ancient greek tradition Wonder Woman is modeled after. her interpretation of the prophecy (which always comes true) may not necessarily be correct, but even Diana cannot take such chances. Even after learning of Antiope’s fate, assuming Circe isn’t lying about it.

I liked that Hermes intervened. In particular, how he lamented that the olympians do not deserve Diana’s faith.

The superman wonder woman pairing would likely suit both as a friends with benefits kind of thing, steel/marble metaphor sounds aside. The schoolgirl super-crush works, but there is only so much naivete one can take. I wasn’t rolling my eyes when i read it. It was more about young Nessie starting this conversation since she was the one spreading such gossip.

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@AntLeon – Oh yeah, the gods do not deserve Diana at all. Like, after Zeus’ attempted rape in the previous arc, the only person they deserve is this gentleman right here.

I don’t know if I’d see them as FWB either. I could MAYBE see Diana being cool with that kind of relationship, but Clark seems more the monogamous type. If a relationship happens before a future Kindom Come/DKR timeframe, I think it’s very early on, like year two/three, they have a good time but ultimately decide they’re not completely compatible, and they split up amicably.

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Sorry for being MIA, but I’m struggling with making it through the first two issues of the Pérez run. I realize it’s a product of its time, but dang. Too many female characters have been depicted as jealous. Vanessa, Silver Swan, Hera, the charity lady to an extent, Etta, probably Barbara Minerva if I could even remember what her motivations were.

Then you have this guy that’s just unbearable.

Chuma and Mr. Choi are here to just be mocked or? What message am I supposed to be getting?


Not the first two issues in the Pérez run, but the first two in the reading selection*

I get you – I think with Vanessa and Etta it’s a bit more understandable, because the former is adolescent and doesn’t really have the experience to get that if her boyfriend is more interested in Diana, a woman he’ll NEVER have a chance with because of his age, then he’s really not good to be around anyway. And Etta doesn’t really have anything against Diana but rather envies Diana’s figure, disparaging her own and not seeing her own beauty even though others see it plain as day – which is a pretty common thing in the world.

But yeah, the guy controlling Swan is so one-dimensional and over the top he might as well be voiced by Cobra Commander or Skeletor.

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