[World of Wonder] Wonder Woman (1987-) #1-6 & Justice League Dark (2018-) #1

@BatJamags It’s awesome to see how many people have already read the story.

That’s really cool that you’re doing the Post-Crisis read through in publication order as well. @FalknerGreaves mentioned they’re doing that with stuff starting a little before Crisis. I missed the memo on that one. Seems fun :slight_smile:

I’ve always enjoyed when Wonder Woman’s identity is public. It gives Diana something different that sets her apart from Clark and Bruce. She’s not constantly struggling to keep secrets this way since she’s all about truth. Her role as an ambassador totally feels like a natural evolution to the character. Of course a princess would be stepping into a role like that. It just makes sense.

I can see that. Ares as an ideology > Ares as a character. War vs peace personified. I like the relationship between Ares and Diana in Azarello’s run, which is why I’m looking forward to how that dynamic is handled in these issues.

I agree with you. Having Wonder Woman interact with more of the DC Universe at large is something we needed more of. She’s normally very isolated to the JL, Trinity, and her solo books. She doesn’t really interact with her sidekicks that much. Her weapons/items are all magic based and she’s faced magic users. Felix Faust and Circe come to mind. Why not?

Zatanna being weaker actually plays into future issues and the reason why is pretty cool. I can’t wait for the Witching Hour event to drop on DC Universe. One of my favorite events in a long time.

That’s really awesome about George Pérez. The interviews I’ve seen of him, he just looks like he’s loving every moment of everything he does. It translates to his art for sure.

I love the art in JLD. I agree that the colors are a highlight.

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@IamSpectre94 Same! I had not seen his art (not that I know of) before JLD. To me it just gets better and better. Certain villains that are introduced in this title are drawn to be extremely creepy and I love it.

Also, welcome and can’t wait to read more of your thoughts! :slight_smile:

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@nu52: The readthrough is going slowly since I’m doing eleven other series alongside it, one month at a time (Detective Comics, Batman, The New Titans, Wonder Woman, The Question, Captain Atom, Justice League America, Suicide Squad, the Flash, Justice League Europe, the Huntress, and Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight at the moment - as some of the series end or run out of digitized issues I’ll be replacing them with other ones). Wonder Woman is definitely the best of the twelve as of January 1990, though. The only other one that comes even close is The Question.

It did always strike me as odd that Wonder Woman isn’t really written as having a “family” like some other major characters. Even Donna Troy and Cassie Sandsmark are almost exclusively in Titans-related books.

I enjoyed James Tynion IV’s Detective Comics, including Zatanna’s appearance there, so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and keep reading. It just was a little offputting. Plus, I’m a tuxedo-and-top-hat hardliner, so it was like “Who are you and what have you done with Zatanna?”

Pérez definitely has a lot of passion for his work. He actually injured himself trying to get JLA/Avengers finished on time.

@Jay_Kay: I’ve got kind of a cluttered schedule, so I’d be willing to split or just let you do it. Based on other discussions here, I think we have somewhat different taste in Bat-Stories, so if we could find some way of sustaining a club for such an obscure side character, alternating could be interesting.

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@BatJamags I did always strike me as strange too, that Donna and Cassie hardly interact with Wonder Woman. Diana has an entire island of sisters (which are all present in the first issue of Pérez’s run) and writers keep insisting on cutting her off from them. That’s what I liked about the New 52 version. She was able to travel to Themyscira and interact with her fellow Amazons. It’s something I was missing when I used to read the Rebirth book.

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“Is this your first time reading the George Pérez run?”

Nope – as I said, I read this first chunk of it fairly recently from a digital trade I got a while back. I think I read up to issue #14 from that one. Read these issues again to refamiliarize myself with these issues.

“How familiar are you with Wonder Woman?”

I’d say fairly familiar – I think I’ve read the most of the sort of mid/post Infinite Crisis era, from Rucka to Simone to Azzarello and Rucka again, with a few bits and pieces of other runs before, during and after.

“What parts of this reimagining are your favorite and which characters stood out positively and negatively?”

There’s a pretty good chunk of stuff I like from this reimagining, with a few things that I’m not too into.

On the positive end, I pretty much like the history of the Amazons as shown here. Diana is a strong character, and like someone mentioned on the WW Year One discussion from last week’s general book club, I like that it takes a little bit longer for her to grok English, the way it’s done in YO feels like a bit of a cheat.

Stuff that I don’t like from this take is how they place this story on the timeline and how it places Steve Trevor. The choice to make this story happen at the present day, so as to make Diana a novice hero alongside the experienced peers like Superman and Batman is just…odd. Diana should be a founding member of the Justice League, IMO.

As for Trevor, while I like him as a character here, I think removing him as Diana’s romantic interest messes up both characters in both the long and short term. I can understand the thought process that they felt it would give the book a different perception if it kept the romantic element, but I think it makes Steve feel somewhat superfluous, and it hurt things in the long run, because after Perez, every writer tried to make up their own half-baked Trevor clone to be her love interest and none of them ever worked out that well.

“Is Ares a good villain?”

He’s…okay. I like that he is beaten not through violence, but from seeing reason; and that he’s actually the one who gives Diana her overall mission of spreading peace between Man’s World and Themyskira. Outside of that, for 90% of the story, he’s really just a raving lunatic in an admittedly badass set of armor.

• JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #1

“How do you feel about Wonder Woman being in this team? Is she a good fit?”

As someone who read the initial run of Justice League Dark, I was thinking a lot of the same things other characters say in this issue – that Diana is too strong both physically and ethically to be in a group that’s previously been known for being more in shades of grey. This issue and the topsy-turvy status quo of magic at this time does prove that while she may not have been a good team member then, she is absolutely what the world of magic needs now.

“Which JLD member is your favorite going into the series?”

Zatanna is always a fave just in general. And considering that one of the big highlights of Tynion’s run on Detective Comics was his addition of Clayface into the team, I think his addition of Man-Bat to this one could have similar results.

“Thoughts on the art in both Wonder Woman '87 and JLD?”

Both accomplish what is set out to do. Perez is a master of the intricate and the crazy, thus really showing the magical world of Themyskira right. Martinez is very dark and moody. Both can do great work with both the over the top moments of action and the more subdued character moments. That said, it’s hard to not be more drawn to Perez, because…come on, it’s George freaking Perez! I’m sure even Martinez himself would say the same thing.

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@Jay_Kay: That’s a good point about not making this a prequel. I don’t really hold that against the story since it seems to be an editorial decision that got foisted on Pérez - note how aside from one brief mention of Superman, other superheroes are not acknowledged until the seventh issue. It’s certainly a bad decision, and it’s kind of grating whenever you’re reminded of it, but I think the run is still enjoyable as an extended Year One story.

You raise a compelling argument about Steve Trevor, too. Personally, I think I find the platonic relationship between them more compelling than the romantic one, but even Pérez has some difficulty finding a use for Steve later on, and while I haven’t seen the string of wannabes myself, I can imagine the mess. It also leads to the weird retcon about Steve Trevor’s mother crashing on Themyscira, which in turn seems to only exist to justify Wonder Woman’s color scheme.

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Yeah, this time period was riddled with that kind of editorial decisions – like Superman being the only survivor of Krypton (making way for a Supergirl who’s actually a protoplasmic shapeshifter from a dead alternate universe) and never being in the Legion of Superheroes. In a way, it almost makes the complaints about stuff in the New 52 feel quaint. Like “Oh, my sweet summer child.”

And I wouldn’t say his mom crashing exists ONLY to justify Diana’s star-spangled bottoms. It also justifies how a civilization stuck in Greco-Roman times has access to a pistol for the last part of the Tournament!

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Apologies for the late replies. Been uber busy.

@Jay_Kay

I like the history of the Amazons here too. I enjoyed getting to spend time with them in the first issue, establishing that part of the mythos. It kind of reminded me to Man of Steel and how they had all of the Krypton stuff. Diana coming in later in the issue gave that story time to breathe and I appreciated that is wasn’t rushed.

It is strange seeing Steve be older than Diana by so much. I’m not familiar with this take and it was a bit shocking when he’s introduced. Even his role in crash landing on Themyscira seems like they hit fast forward to get through it as quickly as possible.

I do agree with you on the decision to exclude Diana from being a founding member of the JL being a bad one. She should always be a founding member. The trinity should have that on lock, not just the big two. I don’t have a problem with her starting off as a novice, probably because of that being how she starts off in the Justice League cartoon and that worked. I just do feel she should be there at the start of the JL.

It does seem like Steve was lost as a character for a long time. People didn’t really know what to do with him. It’s gotta be hard figuring out what to do with the love interest when they’re no longer the love interest. The New 52 set him up pretty nicely though. I’m liking what Rebirth is doing with him too. The live action movie seems to have sparked a more clear vision for him as well.

Ares does have a great look in this. Very menacing.

Regarding JLD:

I’m excited for this team. Many of these characters are ones I know about, but few are ones that I know. Getting Wonder Woman to branch out and interact with them is a great way of getting someone like me into these characters. Wonder Woman being in the book seems odd at first, but given her history with magic makes her inclusion make sense. Her items are all magical, she faces magic based villains, she is around Amazons that practice magic. Man-Bat and Detective Chimp are becoming favorites of mine.

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@Jay_Kay That Supergirl was really weird. I still remember pretty vividly when I first read Death of Superman, when Supergirl gets punched and her face melts, I just was shocked by that image. Seeing a Supergirl figure with a Lex was also disturbing.

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A Lex who’s had his brain put in a younger clone body and pretending to be his son, by the way.

Man, 90s Superman was cray.

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@Jay_Kay Don’t forget the luscious locks! Lex with hair :scream:

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Too true – I mean, it’s crazy, but I can’t really blame Matrix for falling for that Maybelline commercial that walks like a man.

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You can’t resist the luxurious Lex locks.

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Anyway, back to Wonder Woman, I had this thought while reading these issues again – I get the feeling that the Gods were dooming the Amazons to fail. Not even Ares, but their own patrons. The Gods give them a mission of spreading their word to man, man basically rejects and fights them, and then when Hippolyta escapes from her rapist, she is basically told by Hera that they didn’t do enough? I get the feeling that the Gods don’t really care that much about any of the Amazons until one of them, Diana, is needed to save their asses along with everyone else. Really makes one wonder just why the hell Diana and the Amazons still worship these scrubs.

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Not sure if that’s intentional, but it would be totally in-character in relation to the original myths. Pérez does present even the gods who are supposed to be more sympathetic as still arrogant and out of touch (Hermes in particular gets a substantial degree of focus a little later on, and he eventually mellows out, but causes a lot of headache with his antics before that happens).

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That’s a good point. You also have to remember that it wasn’t a unanimous decision to create the Amazons. Hera wasn’t one of the gods that created the Amazons. She and Zeus just left after the meeting they were having.

I feel like the ones that created the Amazons did care about them. Even if it was an ego thing. I doubt they’d want to let their creations be failures. They must not have cared that much though, to sit by and watch everything that happened to the Amazons. That was brutal. I understand where Antiope was coming from 100%.

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@BatJamags

It’s got to be hard for these gods to really have perspective. They don’t live on Earth and are too disconnected from what’s going on most of the time. It makes sense that they’d be like that.

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Oh yeah, the Greek gods are, for lack of a better, technical term, dicks.

Here’s a question – what did you guys think of the Kapatelis family in this story? Reading this with Year One on my mind, while I like the idea of Barbara Ann Minerva being in that role for the extra tragedy, I did kind of miss Julia’s involvement as a sort of mentor figure for Diana acclimating her to Man’s World.

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@nu52, any chance you can have a couple fewer issues when dealing with this title. Each issue is a lot longer than current stories.

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I like Wonder Woman #1 but there is SO much to read and I don’t have but so much time.

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