[World of Wonder] WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26 & JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #3 ✨

@AntLeon That’s how I viewed the Zatanna/Zatara flashback. It was punctuating UDM’s point about how humans use magic.

I mean, Hermes did have the time to grow a mullet. Then again, the gods can change their appearances.

I’m still really far behind on BtAS. I don’t expect myself getting to New Adventures for a while.
The google pics make it seem like it’s hair growing out of his back though :sweat_smile:

I get that dangerous people don’t have to constantly say they’re dangerous, but UDM was doing a lot of walking of the upside-down walk. He turned someone into a puddle and sucked the blood out of Constantine, while leaving Swamp Thing as a dried up shell.

We also didn’t get much about that person with the glowing eyes that was stealing(?) appearances. They were looking for an Amazon, but apparently it was Donna? That’s crazy. I hope we get Donna in this book. I just did want to get more about what that person or entity wanted. Or was that part of the invasion story with the shape shifting aliens and I just missed it?

Looking at some of the covers for later on, I did note that Donna does show up for a few of them!

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@Jay_Kay I really should be looking at covers from further down the line, but that’s good news! I would have guessed a writer doing stories on both Wonder Woman and the Titans would have put them together in a story eventually. I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet in the run actually.

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Donna does make an appearance later on, but not for the moment. The mysterious hooded person is actually followed up on in The New Titans in the “Who is Wonder Girl?” arc (the first issues where they drop the “Teen” from the title - I think we talked about it a little when we covered the Return of Donna Troy). This series doesn’t do a very good job of pointing you there. I just kind of forgot about it and then stumbled back on it while I was reading TNT. If I recall correctly, the story where Donna shows back up tries to give you the Cliffnotes of that and another relevant arc, but checking out The New Titans #50-55 and #62-64 before we get to the Donna arc of this series might be a good idea. There’s some awkward welding-together of Wolfman’s more Sci-Fi-themed stories and Perez’s more mystical mythology-based stuff that gets a little confused if you haven’t read both series.

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@BatJamags I do remember now that we talked about that story during the Return of Donna Troy week.

Before which issue of this series would you recommend checking those stories out? Would it be best to read those issues right before she shows up in this series? I’ve only read the first two issues of Wolfman and Pérez’s Titans back when comics were rotating. I never went back to it after it got pulled from the service. The name change is confusing to me even though it is probably not at all.

Mullets were big in the late 80s. i would not be surprised if at least one of the creative team at the time had one.

UDM: He was very menacing when he was taunting Zatanna about Zatara. Also, very powerful as evidenced in Puddle of Bobo, bleeding John and Husk of Swamp Thing. Most of his dialog can probably be chalked up to bad guy revealing evil plan(s) before getting beaten by the good guy(s). His first misstep was releasing the mark upon Diana’s brow.

Creeper: no rush nor worries. I always thought the red was attached as well. And in the original run, it just might be for all we know. I also thought the yellow was part of the suit and not actually skin/flesh (from what i remember of the TNBA episode).

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@AntLeon I keep forgetting about the time period because there is so much Ancient Grecian iconography on display and then every once in awhile you see people with spiked up green and blue hair come out of nowhere :sweat_smile: Nessie kind of has a mullet too.

Yup, he should not have released the mark, but like he said, it’s more fun/interesting now that he did :slight_smile:

Oh, yeah, I thought the yellow was his skin. I didn’t even realize he was laughing the whole time until I reread the panels and noticed the “hahahahaha” all over.

The NTT name changes are pretty confusing. Basically, this is what happened: So, the first NTT volume came out in 1980. Then, at the beginning of Summer '84, they changed the title to Tales of the Teen Titans at the beginning of the Judas Contract storyline. When The Judas Contract ended, they launched a second volume with the New Teen Titans title that ran alongside Tales, skipping ahead twelve in-universe months while Tales filled in the gaps. NTT vol 2 started with the other well-known story arc from that era, Terror of Trigon (which has some of the best George Pérez artwork I’ve seen, and that’s saying something). Tales ended with the Crisis in '86. Then in '88, The New Teen Titans became The New Titans because a most of the main characters were being written as early-20s instead of teenagers. That title stuck until the whole thing got canceled around '95 or so to make way for the Dan Jurgens Teen Titans. I believe Marv Wolfman was on the book the whole time, while Pérez stopped doing the art after Terror of Trigon and left as co-editor after the Crisis. He had a brief return to art duties for ten issues or so starting with the initial New Titans arc.

On the subject at hand: As long as you read both New Titans arcs before #47 of Wonder Woman, it should make sense. As for context within New Teen Titans, you don’t need much to get #62-64, and #50-55 is incomprehensible even in context. I mean, you could look at #11-12 and #38 of the original 1980 volume, but #11-12 are dubiously canon due to Pérez’s own Post-Crisis retcons about the nature and behavior of the gods in Wonder Woman. #38 is one of the best issues of the series, though, so that’s probably worth a look regardless. So…

1980 #11-12: May provide some context, but dubiously canon.
1980 #38: Ditto, but more clearly canon, more directly relevant, and a substantially more interesting story.
1984 #50-55: Somewhat incomprehensible, and you’ve already got some of the necessary context from The Return of Donna Troy, but the preceding two may help somewhat.
1984 #62-64: Pretty much makes sense on its own.

And all that would have to come any time before Wonder Woman '87 #47.

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@BatJamags I’m still confused about the Titans. Your explanation is about the most clear and concise explanation I have ever read, and I’m still scratching my head at it. I just have accepted the fact that it’ll not make sense to me.

Okay! Thank you for all of the information regarding the Donna in Titans stories. Like I said when we read Return of Donna Troy, I want more of her interacting with Diana. Imagine if Batman interacted with the Robins as much as Diana does with the Wonder Girls :sweat_smile: No one would know who the Robins are.

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NOTICE: While the Community section goes down in preparation for Community 2.0, you can find World of Wonder goodness and all other book club activity on Discord. Follow the link and someone will gladly point you to where you want to be :slight_smile:

https://discord.gg/gEvJVFb

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FYI, all the issues of NTT are on the service now, so it’s ready for you to get back to it whenever you’re up for it. :slight_smile:

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As for the questions:

“How do you feel about Hermes coming forward in the mortal world and what that means for Diana’s ultimate goal of peace between Man’s World and Themyscira?”

I think it does show an interesting crack in Diana’s character and personality as well as Amazonian society – it’s a good place, but the problem is that they’re pretty much Stockholm’ed into being reverent to these awful, gaslighting omnipotent beings who only seem to make their lives miserable. It’s stunning to me that Diana could still have faith in these complete dumpster fires.

“Issue #24 is George Pérez’s final issue as regular artist. Discuss your favorite aspects of his art or specific moments that stood out to you. Did you enjoy the art in the following issues?”

The art going forward was solid enough, but definitely a bit of a step down from what Perez was doing. Perez could draw it all, from great, expressive figures to beautiful and intricate backgrounds, and his sense of panel layout and storytelling was uniquely his own.

“What was your favorite part about Diana teaming with the Justice League International?”

I think the team-up with Captain Atom was pretty interesting. In keeping with the first question, they seem to have a lot in common in that they both kind of have to deal with weird, sometimes contradictory issues with their patrons, the Gods in Diana’s case, and the US Government in Atom’s.

️"Now that we’ve gotten more of the Upside-Down Man, what are your thoughts on the character?"

He doesn’t really feel like a character so much as a force of nature or, more accurately, an exposition dump. He definitely works to introduce this overall enemy we’re going to get for this series (something I think all three JL titles did at the time, which is pretty interesting), but he himself didn’t feel all that interesting.

“Do you want Constantine to join the team permanently? Do you believe he needs to?”

It’s funny, being someone who read through a nice chunk of the original JLD, when this book was first announced, I was a little miffed that Constantine wasn’t on the team. Much like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman in the JL, I felt like him, Zatanna and Deadman sort of became the “Trinity” of the JLD. But after seeing them all in action, I’m fine with the decision. I don’t think John would be on any team unless he was in charge, and with Wonder Woman there…that just ain’t happening.

“With the reveal of Wonder Woman’s new power, have you changed your opinion of whether or not she belongs on the team?”

It definitely gives her a more magical feel than she had in the past. I’m curious to see how Tynion and, perhaps more importantly, how future writers handle this tweak to her power-set. Will it be a permanent mainstay, like Wolverine’s bone claws? Or will it sort of disappear, like Superman’s solar flare? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see…

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@Jay_Kay I should get back to NTT, but I just struggle with connecting to Raven, Starfire, or Beast Boy in any iteration of them.

You know, I hadn’t thought about that, but you’re right. After what Zeus did and tried to do, Diana should have opened her eyes. I guess Hermes is different since he has been helping her and hasn’t abandoned her, like when she was about to get unmade by Circe. Hermes is also one of the gods responsible for her being alive in the first place. It’s tricky. It’s kind of like people with bad parents, but they still love/respect them and are also conditioned to love/respect them by their society. Diana was raised revering these entities, so I can see why it’d be hard to look passed all of his shortcomings. I like that she has that flaw too

Yeah, I’m definitely going to miss how his storytelling is enhanced by him being the writer and artist.

Oh, I hadn’t thought about that angle of Captain Atom. That makes sense. They’re also both trying their best not to kill if they don’t have to the entire issue despite being warrior/military. I wonder how old Captain Atom is in this story. In the Justice League Unlimited cartoon or an animated movie (can’t remember), he’s just energy in a costume, but here they make it seem as if he has a human secret identity that interacts with Steve.

I could see what you mean about UDM being a force of nature. He had to make himself a body, that’s pretty powerful. I don’t really know if I’d consider him an exposition dump. We knew about humans stealing magic before and we knew that the Otherkind were coming. I can’t really think of what else he might have exposited. He unlocked Diana’s power, but didn’t even know what it was.

Oh, see that’s a great perspective. None of us had read it so I am glad we got you here Jay_Kay! If John, Z, and Deadman were like the Trinity of JLD, it must have felt weird as heck not seeing the other two around. It’s like whenever I see a JLA cover and it only has Batman, it looks like it’s missing something. Constantine will do everything his way though, team or no team. I like him as an ally right now.

That’s what I hated about God Mode from New 52. It was really cool and then future writers forgot about it and de-powered her. They used it again in Superman/Wonder Woman, but it wasn’t as cool. I’m excited for what stories might come from this new power.

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Captain Atom’s age is sort of an odd point. He’s about thirty, but he was thrown twenty years in the future at the beginning of his series. He’s able to transform back and forth between his cover identity and Captain Atom there.

Great series, by the way. Highly recommend it. I maintain that it, The Question, and Pérez’s Wonder Woman are some of the best series DC has ever produced, and they all started within a month or two of each other.

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@nu52:

I can definitely see Diana being more kind to Hermes in general because he is one of her patrons. He literally helped birth her into being. Everyone and their grandmother knows that Zeus is a dirtbag, because he’s apparently tried to knock up everyone and their grandmother in the form of a swan, but Hermes’ dick moves aren’t as well known.

And I suppose to be fair to the guy, of all the pantheon, he’s typically been the one who first realizes he’s being a dirtbag and has been often critical of his fellow gods. He does do what he can to repair the damage done to Boston by his actions. Who knows, maybe with a little time and a lot more humility, he might be a half-decent god.

@BatJamags:

As good as this AND The Question? That’s a bold claim, sir! I’ll have to put it a little higher on the to-read list.

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@BatJamags That’s mighty high praise for Captain Atom’s series! I’ll have to check it out at some point. That sounds really interesting about him being flung into the future. I never knew that about him.

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@Jay_Kay Hermes definitely benefitted from looking good in comparison to the other gods, but now that he has no one to hide behind, his flaws are more noticeable.

I like that he’s willing to try to be better. When Harmonia says he has to get their forgiveness or something like that, he tries. He goes about it all wrong, but he’s still attempting to somehow connect with the humans. Who knows how long it’s been since he’s interacted with mankind outside of the Amazons. It was also kind of cool getting his perspective on time.

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What did you all think of Ixion and the gorgon/Phobos story?

Phobos wanted vengeance and he didn’t care who he took it out on. In some sense, it almost felt like Perez was thinking “let’s shake things up”, the Creeper being the icing on that drama cake. But it was also the first time Diana stood up to one of her gods, calling him out on keeping Ixion behind Doom’s Doorway. Even so, in classic greek mythos tradition, the deus ex machina rears its proverbial head and takes care of Ixion for all concerned.

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