[World of Wonder] WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26 & JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #3 ✨

World of Wonder Week 10! :sparkles:

Let’s get back to George Pérez’s run with WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26.

We’ll also continue reading JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) with issue #3.

:closed_book::orange_book::ledger::green_book::blue_book:

:star2:DISCUSSION TIPS
• Stop by to share your thoughts, reactions, and answers to discussion questions as you read the story.

Spoiler discussion begins RIGHT NOW and lasts until next Wednesday (10/9) evening!

:ledger: READ & DISCUSS WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 2 - WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 9 :ledger:

:sparkles: DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

:sparkle: WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26 :sparkle:

  1. How do you feel about Hermes coming forward in the mortal world and what that means for Diana’s ultimate goal of peace between Man’s World and Themyscira?

  2. Issue #24 is George Pérez’s final issue as regular artist. Discuss your favorite aspects of his art or specific moments that stood out to you. Did you enjoy the art in the following issues?

  3. What was your favorite part about Diana teaming with the Justice League International?

:sparkle: JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #3 :sparkle:

  1. Now that we’ve gotten more of the Upside-Down Man, what are your thoughts on the character?

  2. Do you want Constantine to join the team permanently? Do you believe he needs to?

  3. With the reveal of Wonder Woman’s new power, have you changed your opinion of whether or not she belongs on the team?

:nerd_face: Share your thoughts on the reading overall and let’s discuss :nerd_face:

:dizzy:Links to First Issues:

https://www.dcuniverse.com/comics/book/wonder-woman-1986-23/a6cd5b31-895a-48ca-9a65-f0548eb9b2e8

https://www.dcuniverse.com/comics/book/justice-league-dark-2018-3/a5f96a32-fc4b-41ef-9874-64f628323372

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Yay! It finally went through! I’ve been trying to post it all day. :sweat_smile:

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  1. How do you feel about Hermes coming forward in the mortal world and what that means for Diana’s ultimate goal of peace between Man’s World and Themyscira?

Well… I know (some of) what happens, so it’s not totally fair for me to comment, but for the moment he’s definitely an overwhelming presence, whether for good, ill, or a little of both.

  1. Issue #24 is George Pérez’s final issue as regular artist. Discuss your favorite aspects of his art or specific moments that stood out to you. Did you enjoy the art in the following issues?

My favorite aspect of Pérez’s art is all of it. In all seriousness, for standout visuals, my mind goes back to the encounter with Cottus in issue #10, but the whole series is just beautiful to look at. The covers in particular are really nice. Chris Marrinan (who takes over in #25) is decent, and probably the second-best artist on Pérez’s run (as far as I’ve read, anyway), but it’s just a little flatter and less consistent.

  1. What was your favorite part about Diana teaming with the Justice League International?

Beetle and Rocket Red making fools of themselves. It was funny. I also enjoyed the connection between Captain Atom and Steve Trevor in Issue #26 (picked up from an earlier story in Captain Atom’s book)

  1. Now that we’ve gotten more of the Upside-Down Man, what are your thoughts on the character?

Bleh. He was kind of cool when we didn’t know much about him, but he’s not all that scary, actually. The biggest reason for that is he just keeps talking about how scary he is. It’s like someone walking up to you and saying “boo” in a really flat monotone. He just kind of sits there on the ceiling being invincible and smug until a deus ex machina (possibly literally… or a deus ex Diana, anyway) makes him go away. It would’ve been vastly improved by just cutting all his dialogue. It would still just be a fairly bland slugfest, but at least it would sustain an aura of mystery.

  1. Do you want Constantine to join the team permanently? Do you believe he needs to?

From what I know about him, he doesn’t seem like a team player, nor the most powerful sorcerer out there. He is entertaining, though, and the team has a dearth of actual magic users. I guess I’d like him to join for Doylist reasons, but I see no Watsonian reason for it to happen.

  1. With the reveal of Wonder Woman’s new power, have you changed your opinion of whether or not she belongs on the team?

Well, I guess that’s back to the Watsonian/Doylist thing. In-universe, this only just became important so it doesn’t really help justify her being there in the first place (not that I necessarily thought it was a bad thing to begin with). Out-of-universe, it could affect whether it makes sense, but we don’t really know enough about it to say.

As a sidenote, Zatanna still doesn’t really feel right. Like, I get that she’s probably not in the best emotional state given what’s going on, but it’s weirding me out that “misses her dad” is the only trait we’ve really seen her display three issues in.

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I think i have to re-read JLD #2 again. i forgot what happened to Fate. I know Nabu took over, but we still don’t know whose body is under the helmet.

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I think it’s still Kent Nelson, but he’s being puppeteered like in Young Justice (whereas comic Nabu would generally leave him in the driver’s seat).

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I remember WW and co finding a guy tied up in the Tower of Fate and he was saying how Nabu took over. I got the impression that the guy in question is after Kent Nelson. Do we even know if Zatara took a turn (like in YJ)?

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WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26

How do you feel about Hermes coming forward in the mortal world and what that means for Diana’s ultimate goal of peace between Man’s World and Themyscira?
It’s a wonder he did not profess his undying love for Diana. And i was loving his ginger mullet. Diana let her reverence get in the way, but like she said, “he is one of my gods… he gave me life”. she should be able to question him without getting smote (smited?)

Issue #24 is George Pérez’s final issue as regular artist. Discuss your favorite aspects of his art or specific moments that stood out to you. Did you enjoy the art in the following issues?
Well, I can still get a George Perez fix when i read either of his Teen Titans runs. The art was similar to Perez, but you can see it is “not exactly”.

  1. What was your favorite part about Diana teaming with the Justice League International?
    In no particular order:
    Red Rocket calling Diana, “the most wonderful woman”
    Fire and Ice being petty
    Guy, in general

Bonus points to The Creeper, whose shadow silhouette i thought i saw.

JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #3

Now that we’ve gotten more of the Upside-Down Man, what are your thoughts on the character?
He’s a typical malevolent villain with a lot of power. i would like to know how he fits into the bigger picture. is he just a point man for bigger trouble down the road? he kept saying how the magic was taken and now it’s going to be taken back.

Do you want Constantine to join the team permanently? Do you believe he needs to?
He probably doesn’t need to, but he’s got skills and knowledge that can definitely help a magic based team. also, he’s not much of a team player which doesn’t help his opinion that if he lets anyone get close, they will get hurt. or die. or worse. I do like the respect he gives Swamp Thing. I may have more than one version of Constantine swirling about my head.

With the reveal of Wonder Woman’s new power, have you changed your opinion of whether or not she belongs on the team?
Diana was the one that felt the magic component after Metal/No Justice (i think it was No Justice). The team sort of developed around her as she was trying to figure out what was happening. What i want to know is if there is anything else we need to know about what happened to young Diana after receiving the mark.

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That was Khalid, who was Doctor Fate for a brief period during the DCYou era, getting the helmet and largely having to figure out being a hero on his own until Kent showed up to help out. I guess in the interim Kent got the helmet again and then took his heel turn.

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:sparkle: WONDER WOMAN (1986-) #23-26 :sparkle:

  1. How do you feel about Hermes coming forward in the mortal world and what that means for Diana’s ultimate goal of peace between Man’s World and Themyscira?

Hermes always felt like he didn’t really belong with the other gods, as if he was trying to get away from them. It’s weird and fascinating. He wants to do good, but he also wants people to worship him. I did not see his “feelings” for Diana coming at all. He’s trying to do good (though not entirely for the best of reasons), but it keeps going over poorly after the whole Ixion ordeal. He’s already turned the public against him. If Diana continues to be associated with Hermes, the public will turn on her. I mean, we see a little of that when she returns and the crowd is giving her a mixed reaction. That could end up spreading to a larger scale though. She’s not just known to Boston. She’s dealing with the UN and Hermes kept having camera crews following them around (Is he the new Myndi? :joy:).

  1. Issue #24 is George Pérez’s final issue as regular artist. Discuss your favorite aspects of his art or specific moments that stood out to you. Did you enjoy the art in the following issues?

I really came to love George Pérez’s art. My favorite aspect of his art is how he depicts the lasso of Hestia as burning. I don’t know if that’s the right way of describing it. It just looks great. At first, I thought it was just a technique to show it was lit up, but in story it would actually be referred to as the flames of Hestia or something similar. I’ll definitely miss him doing the art on every entry. The following issues after #24 were good, but they did seem more dated. For some reason Pérez’s art comes off more timeless. The art in #25-26 reminded me a little of a Superman comic for some reason. I’m hoping the colors improve from #25-26 and that they seemed a little rushed just because they were part of an event going on.

  1. What was your favorite part about Diana teaming with the Justice League International?

I liked that Diana’s world got to interact with the JLI. Last time, we only saw Wonder Woman interact with other heroes (well kind of since we didn’t actually see it beyond a few conversations). Etta having important information, then Steve having information that the Khunds wanted was a good way of tying them into the story. Diana knowing Black Canary’s secret identity was nice. Wonder Woman and J’onn bonding was great. Vanessa asking about SuperWonder was something I didn’t know I wanted :slight_smile: Fire and Ice were acting in a way that I was not expecting at all (Not sure if I liked or disliked that part). Guy and Diana coming to a mutual respect was probably my favorite of all of it though.

:sparkle: JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK (2018-) #3 :sparkle:

  1. Now that we’ve gotten more of the Upside-Down Man, what are your thoughts on the character?

He’s creepy and really menacing. I want to see more of this villain and I want to know more of the Otherkind. I like how he’s mad that mankind stole magic, but moreso mad that they gave magic rules and order. Like, why steal an entire spice rack and then only use the salt? I like how he tried to take on a form that would be more digestible to humans, but still looks horrible. His powers are insane. I like how they depicted them like how Bobo turns into a puddle and how it looks like UDM folds reality like a tablecloth or something.

  1. Do you want Constantine to join the team permanently? Do you believe he needs to?

Bobo and Kirk coming in clutch with the sword was great, but beyond that, they need more firepower. I don’t think Constantine needs to join them permanently though. I could see him coming in for the occasional assist. I like having him around.

  1. With the reveal of Wonder Woman’s new power, have you changed your opinion of whether or not she belongs on the team?

I did feel she belonged on the team before the revelation. Now, it’s a definite yes. If she holds some magic that even Zatanna doesn’t know about, then she’s where she belongs. I like getting to see Wonder Woman in a different setting like this with other characters she doesn’t interact with all too much.

I was feeling kind of bad for Ixion at points in the story when he was pretty much begging to be killed to no longer suffer in his prison. I hadn’t realized just how badly Boston got destroyed. It sucks for the people of Boston that they just suffered this massive destruction and the world doesn’t really care because they just dealt with an Invasion. It was unexpected for me when they revealed why Julia was acting a bit out of character. She was being a real jerk to people. The explanation… I don’t know how to feel about that either. It can go two ways.

The art in JLD continues to be some of my favorite stuff involving Wonder Woman. She looks incredible. It was also adorable how Kirk takes Bobo in puddle form and carried him around in that vase. I’m liking the two of them together. Swamp Thing hasn’t really done much, but that giant form he took where he was even bigger than the Tower of Fate? Epic. The UDM just drawing out all of Constantine’s blood was perfect villainy. Zatanna’s backstory was cool. I don’t know much about her and that sequence about how her dad was teaching her magic was great. I wasn’t quite clear, did they die and Wonder Woman revived them or were they under a spell and she just undid it?

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@BatJamags Oh my gosh, overwhelming presence describes Hermes perfectly in these issues! I did like seeing more of his powers. I really liked the part where he spoke to Diana in the water/through the water.

Yeah, I’ll always remember that part where Wonder Woman had been walking on the creatures spine without realizing it.

I wasn’t expecting that from Beetle, LOL. Rocket Red’s inner dialogue was hilarious. His poor wife. I did like that Captain Atom and Steve had a connection. It makes sense for characters that are high ranking military in universe should know each other. It seemed like they had a good friendship. Makes me want to go read all of Invasion and the tie-ins, but especially the Captain Atom stuff.

I didn’t find UDM scary either, but what he could do was certainly scary. Also, the thought of what his true form might be was intriguing. I found it funny that he made himself pants. I didn’t think it was a bland slugfest though. Gotta disagree there. It’s funny how Kirk picking up Bobo to slice UDM and Diana were the only ones to “hurt” the villain, despite those three being the least magically versed.

Constantine has tricks though. He may not be the most powerful, but he’s probably willing to cross lines others won’t.

True, I guess this is an after the fact thing and doesn’t give a new in-story reason for her being on the team. She obviously doesn’t know about the power when it shows up. I guess if the in-story reasons weren’t enough, then this doesn’t add to that. Out-of-universe, the writer must have had it planned so it justifies it more for me in that regard.

Really? I didn’t get a misses dad from this issue. I felt like it was more just showing her training to put a spotlight on UDM’s comment of magic in this world being so regimented and put into little boxes. The explanation of why they use things like backwards words, wands, etc., was cool, IMO. I like how people as powerful as Zatanna have to hide their magic usage from the Otherkind because that’s how scary they are. Zatanna is definitely getting more than Swamp Thing and arguably more than Bobo or Kirk.

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@AntLeon

I was half expecting Hermes to confess. Maybe he doesn’t realize his own feelings? I hadn’t noticed his mullet in previous issues, but it was out on display in these ones. It was great.

Yeah, I felt that about the art. “Not exactly” is just what I kept feeling while reading those issues.

I did really like that he called her Wonderful instead of Wonder. I also liked how he and Diana started speaking in his Russian because it showed off Diana’s ability of speaking multiple languages. The only part that confused me was how she would know Russian, but had to learn English at the beginning of this run. It’s not a big deal.
Fire was funny at times. I have never seen her like this. Usually she’s the one all of the guys are falling over themselves for.
Guy thanking Diana for saving him after he was telling her Diana should thank him for saving her friend, while also commenting on how his ring would have shielded him so she died for nothing, was amazing. He’s an experience.

The Creeper showing up surprised me! We were just talking about him on the podcast and how he’s going to be part of BizarroTV on DC Universe. It’s so funny he would show up in the run just as that is all going on in real time.

Oh, I didn’t even think about that. What if he’s just a messenger or the first of many? I was just assuming he was the big one, but he could just be the point man.

Yeah, it’s nice seeing Constantine’s relationships with Swamp Thing and Zatanna. I do want to see that explored more and have him interact with Bobo and Kirk.
We’ve got to get more about what happened to Diana and why when she was a kid.

I don’t know if Zatara ever took a turn as Fate, but he’s definitely not currently. I wonder if the Otherkind will use him in some way to get to Zatanna since the UDM mentioned they have him.

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Question: Does the creeper have hair coming out of his back or is it some type of clothing/accessory?

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You should go ask the question

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@Nu52: I suppose there were some decent trippy visuals in the UDM fight, but our heroes spent most of the issue running around doing stuff that ended up having no effect on him while he just smacked them around and bragged. I guess to the extent that it was interesting, the artist was pulling more weight than the writer.

Hm. Maybe if I knew Constantine better, I’d have a better idea of how he can contribute. My understanding is that he’s pretty devious, so I could see him as sort of the team’s Batman providing more strategy and misdirection than firepower, though that seems to be Bobo’s niche so far.

I guess I didn’t phrase my Zatanna point right. She’s there and doing stuff and being focused on, sure, but she doesn’t have her usual charm or theatrics, and her father keeps getting brought up whenever something important happens with her (like when the UDM taunts her or she coaches Wonder Woman using the same advice her dad gave her) as if that’s the only thing motivating her. Maybe I’m just being picky. I guess I’d say that comparing this with, for example, her shortlived ongoing from 2010 reminds me of when Tony Bedard took over Birds of Prey from Gail Simone, and Lady Blackhawk sort of lost the spark and sense of humor that had made her the best part of Simone’s run. Like, it wasn’t completely wrong, but something felt missing somehow, and I’m getting the same feeling here.

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@Don-El I finally have a question for The Question! Isn’t it weird how we were just talking about the Creeper and he was just announced for Bizarro TV?

@BatJamags True. I feel like that’s the case in a lot of comics nowadays. The artists seem to do a lot whereas the writers have a few lines of dialogue. I was able to read JLD way faster than I was able to read the extra story in WW #26 about that random Amazon.

Yeah, Diana could provide strategy as well. Kirk would also be able to come at it from a scientific angle while Zatanna could handle it from a magical angle. I just like Constantine’s new outfit :slight_smile:

I didn’t feel like that was the only thing motivating her. Zatanna was shown to be going to the magic meeting and it was to help figure out the problem with everyone’s magic. I don’t feel like Zatara is her motivation, but he’s definitely the reason she’s part of this magical world. He’s her origin story. I can see what you mean about her charm, especially when characters like Kirk and Bobo retained there’s. I just think she’s not feeling at 100% because of her magic being wonky.

Did you read the previous JLD run from the New 52? I didn’t, but I’m wondering if she had that spark in that book.

Nah, I didn’t catch that one. Actually, now that I think about it, the only book from between the New 52 and Rebirth is the Detective Comics issue I assigned for the Batman book club. That’s partially pettiness because I don’t like the continuity changes from Flashpoint, and partially because I legitimately have more interest in older books, but I should probably get over myself and try some of the better-received books out.

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*The only book I’ve read, that is. Edit button!

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For me, Zatanna’s Zatara memory was more about magic and how humans conjure/wield it. Zatara (am i spelling that right?) saying how their family uses language to create the desired effect is one of those lines that seem to be a throw away, but add a depth to the universe that implies how things don’t happen in a vacuum.

Hermes’ mullet was more apparent in this latest selection.

wrt The Creeper: I highly recommend that New Adventures of Batman episode that features him. His entry in the back in the day Who’s Who kind of stuck with me for no apparent reason.

UDM did do a lot of talking about how dangerous he is. To paraphrase Daniel from Fear the Walking Dead: Dangerous people don’t have to tell you they are dangerous.

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I’m tempted now to just have a string of New 52 books as part of this club just so you give them a chance :joy:

For the most part, I thought the first wave of Rebirth comics were horrendous, but I still gave them a shot and found some good ones. You’d be surprised at which comics you’d like if you give them a chance :slight_smile:

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