Yeah, I was just responding to this…
The trilogy he supposedly planned just doesn’t seem to work at all on a story level. The ideas are weird and don’t seem to have much purpose. I think the reason most people are confused by stuff like Bruce and Lois having a kid isn’t due to the fact it’s wildly uncharacteristic, but because it literally adds nothing to the plot until the very end.
Saying that something doesn’t seem to work at all on a story level, and doesn’t seem to have much purpose. And is “wildly uncharacteristic,” and doesn’t literally add anything to the plot until the end…
That to me was like, “Oh, he seems to see something wrong with this.”
So I was like, no, this is the story that Zack Snyder wanted to tell.
Ultimately though, the part that you quoted wasn’t addressed to you in specific and what you were saying.
That’s why I said specifically: "So that criticism to me seems as though, for some (many?), and in the general sense… "
So in the general sense is what I was talking about. Because I’ve seen more times than I can count how some have said how “out of character” Zack Snyder has portrayed certain characters.
That just rings to me that there is a mindset out there that these characters can only be a certain way, and that to me is just wrongheaded thinking. And DC characters in specific is what I’m talking about here, because those are the ones who I’m familiar with.
Later on through of course I addressed specifically what you were saying, but in this case this was in a general sense.
I was taking about that specific criticism and applying it in a general sense.
The answer to this depends on how important and major the event/plot device is. Bruce and Lois having a kid while Clark is dead is a pretty frickin big deal. That would have major consequences on the all three of them and the plot overall. You can’t just sweep it under the rug and then bring it back up after Bruce is dead to set up a new Batman.
Why can’t you sweep it under the rug and bring it back up later? That would be kind of the whole point of doing it. Or at least that would be kind of the whole point of that particular story.
We the audience would probably think it’s Superman and Lois Lane’s child, but no, it’s not. It’s Bruce Wayne and Lois Lane’s. That’s the story, that’s the twist.
Some may not like that twist, but, y’know, what can you do? It’s the story he wanted to tell. Some are going to like it and some aren’t.
And I read the whole storyboard of what Zack Snyder wanted to do and it was like… okay. He wanted to this, then this, then this, then that. Okay. Fine. I hope HBO Max and WarnerMedia decide to make this, it would be crazy and zany and cool. And very Zack Snyder. And hopefully available in a “Justice is Gray” version too. [insert smiley face]
And of course a lot of people may hate it, but again… whatever. A lot of people will probably like it too. And so it goes.
And then you move on to the next imaginary story, because a Zack Snyder Justice League trilogy of movies with Lois Lane and Bruce Wayne having a child while Superman is dead, and him growing up to be the next Batman is not the end of the world. It’s just the end of a set of movies. (Ha!)
And then they’ll do something else… like a Black Superman movie. Now, that there may cause some “The End is Here” signs to pop up. (And that was a joke.)
I really could not care less about how accurate these films would be to the comics. Superman and Lois, for example, has been doing a lot of new and different things with Clark and his kids that are literally nothing like what we’ve seen in the comics. But the show maintains continuity and gives those changes the proper amount of time and focus they deserve considering how much of an impact they would have on Clark’s life. To summarize my take as being upset about it not following the comics is extremely bad faith considering how I literally establish that as not being the issue very early on in my initial argument.
Yeah, read what I said again…
And ultimately, what it seems as though what you’re saying, that what Zack Snyder wanted to set up with Bruce Wayne and Lois Lane having a child, and that the reason behind doing this doesn’t pay off until the end of the story, that this is somehow “wrong” and doesn’t seem to have much purpose?
If that’s what you’re saying, then when would you have it pay off? Mid-way through the final film. Three-quarters of the way through? At the beginning of the final film, and that’s what the final film would be about?
So, y’know, it’s like what are we talking about here… what’s the real criticism here?
What I said had nothing to do with comic accuracy. So I wasn’t summarizing anything you said in regards to comic accuracy. I was talking about the leaked storyboards.
So… yeah. [insert smiley face]
I literally explain how narrative relevance is important in that quote when I discuss Logan. Beyond that, I follow it up with how shooting in black and white to create a dynamic and interesting shot requires very specific set ups during production that we know Zack didn’t do. You can sit here and say that there are no rules to filmmaking and that’s fine. I’d agree with you. But there are ways to take advantage of the black and white filter to at least make it visually interesting if you aren’t giving it a narrative purpose. It’s like slapping a black and white filter on The Avengers. Like, it does nothing visually because that’s not how the film was shot or planned.
Yes, I read and fully understood what you were saying in regards to Logan.
They did that in HBO’s Watchmen too.
So yes, I know what you’re talking about.
And it’s a practice that’s been done in contemporary movies, in which the whole movie is shot in black and white, and the whole movie was set in the present day – Spike Lee’s She’s Gotta Have It immediately comes to mind.
And Woody Allen’s Manhattan.
So yes, it can be used in a narrative purpose, and as a stylistic choice.
One thing on the black and white version:
“I’d like to shoot a black-and-white movie at some point. We’re finishing right now the black-and-white version of Justice League, and it’s called the Justice Is Gray Edition,” Snyder told I Minutemen. “That’s what I call it. Justice League: Justice Is Gray Edition. It’s not black-and-white as they say (laughs). But that’s the name of the black-and-white version.”
Snyder has described what is now called the Justice Is Gray Edition as the “most Justice League experience” and the “ideal version of the movie” because the long-fabled Snyder Cut was edited in black-and-white.
“My ideal version of the movie is the black-and-white IMAX version of the movie. That, to me, is the most fan-centric, most pure, most Justice League experience,” Snyder said in a November interview with The Film Junkee. “Because that’s how I lived with the movie for two years, in black-and-white.”
And it is visually interesting, isn’t it? [insert smiley face]
I mean, very few are looking at it as “ho-hum.” It causes a reaction, both pro and con.
And of course we’re free to watch it the way of we like. I’m going to watch both. And honestly, I like the black and white version of the teaser trailer the best.
And all of the marketing material being in black and white, or “Justice is Gray,” is visually interesting. I think, at least.
It makes it stand out from the rest of the super-hero schlock. And “schlock” of course being my opinion of everything else comic book movie-related; save for the Joker.
Beyond all that, I also follow up why doing the black and white edit could do a disservice to the purpose of costuming in this follow up edit I made:
As far as my criticisms of being pretentious, it’s literally one line in my initial response and is not something I embedded in the criticisms I made through out. My criticisms are mostly that the films are poorly written and underdeveloped from a narrative stance. Also, pop art has far more meaning and depth to it than you are portraying it as. Pop art isn’t just cool looking art pieces. It was a whole counter-movement from the era, but I don’t really care to get into all that right now.
You can disagree with me on him being pretentious as that’s totally subjective. But I have no interest in really focusing on it at the moment because it’s really not the core of my argument.
First, don’t presume how I am portraying something, because you may be surprised if there’s an underlying motive to it… [insert smiley face]
Case in point: it’s interesting that you bring up Pop Art as being a whole counter-movement to an era.
That describes Zack Snyder’s Justice League to a “T,” does it not?
There’s nothing else out there like it. Nothing. And it’s counter to every super-hero movie that we’ve had thus far.
And like art itself, it’s subjective, and sometimes polarizing.
Pop Art is about liking things.
-Andy Warhol
I’m personally fine with exploring Elseworld’s version of these characters like the films you mentioned (whether or not I’d still have critique on the handling is dependent) but at the time of Zack’s plans from MoS, BvS, JL these aren’t considered Elseworlds but all part of the main-timeline for the franchise we’d be exposed to for however many years so I’m judging it more on that basis.
I just think for the first time bringing all these characters together on screen in featured films shouldn’t deviate too far away from the personality or traits that are more popularized within the canon.
Actually, I believe Zack Snyder never intended for his movies to be a part of a cinematic universe.
I could be wrong on that, but I believe that was Warner Bros.’ ambition, not his. They banked on that though of course and lost.
Whatever the case may be, thankfully now they’ve wised up and are now just going to tell the best stories possible.
And if it fits into a shared universe, then so be it.
And if not, then it won’t.
Like Todd Phillips’ the Joker is it’s own thing. And Matt Reeves’ The Batman will be it’s one thing.
If they’re good movies then they’re good movies. Shared universe or no. Popular canon versions or no.
DC shouldn’t chase after Marvel. They should do their own thing.
Don’t try to be like someone else is the lesson that they’ve finally learned, I believe. Hopefully they’ll be the better for it.
