Watchmen Backlash?

General Discussion Comic Books
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I’ve read Watchmen and I see why people hold it in such high regard. I don’t hate it, but it’s never going to be in my personal top ten comics list.

I think what turned me off were the fans and what Watchmen helped usher in. Mind you, none of this has to do with the maxi-series itself (“Graphic Novel” is a term I’ll never use for a maxi or mini-series)

Growing up, all I ever heard was how much better Watchmen was compared to “regular comics” from people who not only read Watchmen but wanted YOU to know they read it. It was always this sacred cow you could never disagree about because “St. Alan” wrote it. I find a lot of his die hard fans insufferable for this very reason. I felt so bad for Dave Gibbons at the San Diego Comic Con Watchmen panel in 2008 when it came time for the Q&A panel. I heard audio from it and a lot of questions started with “Before I ask my question, I just want to thank you for creating such an important piece of art” Gibbons is a gracious person. Me, I would’ve thanked them but urged them to get on with their question.

Watchmen itself was fine but so many people tried to capture that tone and style over the years and it (along with Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns) ushered in the grim and gritty era of comics that’s more than overstayed it’s welcome.

The comic itself is fine. It’s well written and has gorgeous art. And it’s taught in colleges for a reason, but from a personal preference, what it spawned and the more extreme people that carry its banner are just not my cup of tea.

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23

I have never heard Alan Moore called a saint. It can’t exist without “regular” comics! As far diehard fans, well, the work is good. It’s very good. But how much of the DC work would have happened without editor Len Wein?

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Going back to what I said about how Watchmen sees and addresses superhero comics. I highly enjoy stories that take a grounded and serious approach, granted that they are still executed well. And I love the down to earth tone and atmosphere of Watchmen…but it can in some ways come off as a little pretentious. This came out at the end of the Bronze Age, when comics were integrating real world issues into their stories and becoming more serious in general. Watchmen simply went all the way (the exception being Manhattan, but even then it sounds like his abilities are entirely plausible according to real world science). But Watchmen does sometimes get all the credit when it came to making superhero comics serious, which isn’t entirely true. It’s influence did help further superhero comics being taken more serious, for better and worse. But to act like it was the sole story to do that doesn come off as giving it too much praise and credit from that perspective.

In my opinion, the ideal story is one that embraces the weirdness, bizarre, and fantastical elements while also being grounded and dealing with serious issues, development, and topics. Stories like “The Sandman” and Grant Morrion’s run on Doom Patrol do just that, embracing everything that comes with a comic and yet be taken as serious. It’s about finding that right balance.

Having said all that, Alan Moore is still a legend in my eyes. Watchmen, while having a few flaws that are more easily identified today, is still an epic story. We still need grounded and realistic stories. But I have found a whole new appreciation for the more fantastical as well.

I am finally getting around to “Doomsday Clock” and I’m hoping it does find a balance between the seriousness of Watchmen and the larger than life nature of the main DC Universe.

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This seems like a good place to recommend the seeking out of some classic Denny O’Neil-- right here in the comics section of the DCU!

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Frankly it’s one of the few runs of Alan Moore I like. It was the right person, with the right idea, in the right place, at the right time. 5 years earlier or later, it would not have grabbed the mainstream public consciousness the way it did.
Would Superman or Batman been embraced as they have been in the dire midst of the depression in 33 & 34, or would they have mattered as much in a post WWII setting? I doubt it. Right people, with the right idea, in the right place, at the right time. A lot of social history is like that.

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Sounds like people that only watched the movie. The movie sucked. The comic deserves every single bit of praise it gets and it’s even being taught in college courses. You have to also read the notes in the back each issue also. It fleshes out the story even more.

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I think Watchman was brilliant. There is a good surface “superhero” story that can be enjoyed. But, there is also so much more. The book takes the comic medium and uses it in ways uniquely suited to that medium. From the colors to the use of double meaning captions to the layout of panels to the background material, the book pushes what comics can do. That’s part of why the movie isn’t as successful—because it can only tell the surface story.

Watchman paved the way for a lot of storytelling methods used by today’s best creators. It also unintentionally created a dark modern age of comics that Moore saw coming and sought to satirize and comment on. And while a lot of modern writers, who are inspired by the deep storytelling, do a good job at the layered meaning and commentary in their stories, I find that they neglect the surface story. There are some runs or series where the symbolism get so confusing that I need to go to Wikipedia just to see what the story was about because I wasn’t smart enough. Watchman has both a string superhero murder mystery that anyone could grasp as well as a deeper meaning for anyone willing to dig deeper.

And while I don’t think folks think Watchman is overrated. Because it is the parent of the dark age, I have heard some readers (and movie watchers) say they think the book is tame by today’s standards.

I also believe that the sequels have diluted the power of the original story, it’s the sequels. Although I enjoyed both Doomsday Clock and the tv show, I think there were both unnecessary and troublesome. There are some standalone stories in movies and books that should never have sequels. I think Watchman also fits into this category. Whether Ozymandias’ plan works or is discovered is a cliffhanger that isn’t supposed to be resolved. It is the “Was Arnold really on Mars breathing air or in the Recall chair?” Or “Will the coin fall showing life is real or continue spinning?” We’re not meant to know. It’s schrodinger’s cat, and we’re never meant to open the box. However, now we have two sequels (HBO and the Doomsday Clock) that address that very question. I had no problem with the Before Watchman prequels, but I think part of Watchman’s power is that you just don’t know if the plan works and what you think happens after the last page says more about you than the book. In fact, my views have changed over time as to what would have happened.

Of course, your mileage may and should vary. That’s the beauty of it.

Sorry I babbled, ‘tiz what I do.

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I think if you ignore the historical context of a story, you’re ignoring part of the story. Now, that’s not to say all stories require, or deserve, some historical research. And honestly, if every comic required some in depth research, I wouldn’t enjoy them so much.

However, I think it’s unfair to take a story from one culture and hold it up to the standards of a different culture. One of the things Watchmen did for American comic readers of the 1980s, is it held up a mirror to what we all loved about “simple comics” and attempted to remind us how flawed human beings can be.

All the pulp heroes from Americans comics of the 40s, 50s, etc. are greater than life. They’re perfect. But what if you actually had a bunch of regular guys, running around in costumes, beating up local mobsters? Would the government attempt to harness the public’s imagination? Would the government outlaw anybody they couldn’t control?

Comparing the 80s culture to today’s wokeness…
I assert, Watchmen was one of those things that started us down the road to our current wokeness (for better or for worse). Women in despair was a very common trope for comics at that time. I think it’s impressive that the older Silk Specter is shown strong, and able to move past the Comedian’s assault. I don’t think Alan Moore makes light of the situation, or condones it. It’s clear, the Hangman has huge problems with it. The younger Silk Specter is royally pissed off and sickened. And the Comedian is written in such a way that the reader ends up revolted by him (and he’s dead the whole time!).

Even today, Lois Lane needs Superman to save her. And once saved, we never see Lois dealing with the mental and emotional damage. She’s just magically all better.

In flashbacks, we see the older Silk Specter go through several emotional stages. It’s a decades long struggle.

Then, look at Rorschach. He’s hugely damaged from a life of neglect and abuse. He finds purpose and direction with the Minutemen. But, when he finds the dead girl’s remains had been callously thrown to the dogs to be eaten, he breaks.

His therapist is a progressive man of priviledge. His life is mapped out, and everything’s in its place. He has no doubt he can help Rorschach. Rorschach is simply another lost soul, waiting to be shepherdded back to a better adjusted lifestyle. But hearing Rorschach’s story, and seeing how Rorschach not only copes with it, but he uses it to completely justify his behavior. In effect, Rorschach knows what he does is terrible. And he’ll keep doing it, gladly; because the bad guys are terrible people, and they deserve it. The therapist despairs.

By today’s standards, we’ve all seen scenes of rape. It’s no longer shocking; it’s gratuitous. And random, horrific violence is no longer a peek into the abyss. Now, it’s “gritty” and a bore.

Without Watchmen, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket,
Law and Order SVU, and other “insightful” bits of pop culture, would our culture have taken the self-deprecating ride to today’s wokeness?

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Everyone here makes me wish there was a club or thread dedicated to reading and discussing the series in the now. It sounds like the kind of experience that’s enriched when shared.

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Watchmen’s a weird case.

To a certain extent, I do think it’s overrated. It’s not the greatest comic ever made. Many of its elements haven’t aged particularly well. It’s message has been repeatedly misinterpreted by “fans” of it, and it effectively ruined comic book storytelling for over a decade. But, taken on its own merits, it really is something special.

The plotting and pacing are meticulous, and the art by Dave Gibbons is gorgeous. As much as it is a product of ‘86, there’s also a lot there that’s relevant to today. Now, whether or not that says something about the eternal nature of society’s problems or something about the evergreen quality of the comic is up for debate, but the point stands. I’ve been trying to sort my feelings out on the book for a while, and I’m still not entirely confident about where I stand on it, but it is great.

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There is always a backlash against works considered among the best in their field.

I consider it overrated, as it is not my cup of tea. Too many supporting characters when I much prefer a clear protagonist like in DKR.

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I have a complicated relationship with DKR. It was pretty good, but it also showcased characteristics and traits that will later dominate Frank Miller’s stories and make them all trash

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@EDT I hear ya. DKR set a tone for Miller that he never fully got out of. You could say the same for some creators that tried to follow in his footsteps with Batman stories. I’d argue DKR was the catalyst for the “Bat-God” trope.

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Since I have a lot of people here, I have to ask something that’s somewhat related. Currently in the middle of reading Doomsday Clock. Is it ever explained just how Mime has an actual invisible gun?

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I don’t remember them ever explaining it, but to be fair I’d they did it would be hard to remember as delays between issues made it hard to keep everything together.

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I love DKR 3 and Batman Year 1, find Golden Child bad and Superman Year 1 and Strikes again to be mixed bags. None of that affects when DKR changed me, got me into comic books, and the terrific times I have had rereading.

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Watchmen is not overrated. Watchmen is brilliant. It is carefully and masterfully structured. It has meta references to the history of superhero comic publishing. It makes serious and beautiful statements on the human condition.

I don’t think the issue is that Watchmen is overrated. I think the issue is that Watchmen inspired at least a decades worth of superhero stories after it was published, and it never really should have.

At its heart, Watchmen is about how superheroes are kind of a bad thing because authority is kind of a bad thing. The best copycats that followed Watchmen mostly echoed that message.

The worst copycats missed that message completely and missed the humanistic qualities of the story and went straight to focusing in on the sex, violence, and cynicism.

Even Alan Moore realized that it probably took superhero stories to a place they really shouldn’t have gone. His work on Supreme and Youngblood was supposed to be something of an apology for Watchmen.

I love Watchmen. I probably always will. But… I’m over thinking it is the end all, be all. Every superhero story cannot and should not be like Watchmen. You should be able to have light, fun stories with superheroes. Still… a little deconstruction every now and then never hurt anyone.

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Snide cynical derisive nihilists will always invest as much energy and time into tearing down works of art in any medium.
When asked to provide pieces they would put up to stand against it in its place, they fail this simple task as they are far too invested in being dour and glum and casting aspersions about storytelling in general.
"Watchmen’ in its original form is a magnificent stand-alone piece of epic story-telling.
If there is any backlash to be generated, it should come from DC doing its best to milk that cash cow long after the udders have shriveled up and the genius of Alan Moore disassociated himself from that world.

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Watchmen was the second “serious” comic I ever read. It’s important to understand the politics of the time as @DeSade-acolyte said. It’s important work if nothing else. My opinion would be that any comic fan should read it just as homework.

I’m also a fan of the film. It’s a hard thing to adapt. Things got lost in translation. I think that’s a problem with the source material being challenging. (I also think of Cloud Atlas as I type this.)

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I have a hard time calling it overrated. It’s like saying The Great Gatsby is overrated. Both are products of their time, certainly, but they have a timeless appeal in the way they explore themes that are always relevant and do so in a style that is influential—often imitated but seldom duplicated.
I understand why, to some, Watchman is “not your cup of tea.” But it deserves the praise it gets for a good reason: it transcends the medium. I can pick up a random issue of a comic and appreciate it because I appreciate the medium itself, even if I don’t like that issue all that much. But even those who don’t get into comics in general can see the literary and artistic merit of Watchmen. The brilliance of “Fearful Symmetry” alone makes it worth decades of textual analysis. Imbedded in a grand scope that is truly postmodern, Moore & Gibbons’ masterpiece is a work of literary significance that earns its place in the modern canon.

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