The Psychology Of Supervillians Club..March 2020 - Vandal Savage

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Oop, and one more thing I really liked about the issue was this panel:

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Reading this comic felt a lot like watching an Iron Man movie, in that the artist spent a lot of time putting the focus only on Vandal’s eyes, leaving them to convey the story.

For the three issues, in all of the close-ups, Vandal always had a steely stare. Save this one, when his daughter asked if he ever thought of her mother.

Lot of ambiguity in that look. Is he disappointed in himself for not being able to feel more? Aggravated? Resigned? Tired?

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Hi @CynicalPink

You’ve brought up a really interesting element about Vandal and his psychology. Well done. :+1:

I’ll throw my $0.02 cents in the ring and others with different please chime in, if so inclined. (There are no wrong answers here.)

I think one additional reason for Vandal making use of religion as a way to create community and possibly setup his own cult around himself.

In some pantheistic religions there is a hierarchy to the gods. The Greek pantheon has many gods, but Zeus is “top of the food chain”. So he may see himself as a god but under a few gods more powerful than he is. (He is immortal but can’t shoot lightning like Zeus, for example) Another potential aspect is paying homage to the gods of things that he can’t control, like the weather, bountiful crop harvests, etc.

Another possibility is he is sacrificing to gods that are his brothers and sisters. Setting himself up as one of the gods in the pantheon that is tangible on earth. This could also help create a cult around himself. Even as time went on, and monotheistic religions developed and gained power, having a secret cult following could be useful. Especially because it gives him another way, through his followers, to get close to power and pull some of the strings, via an intermediary.

So by creating and controlling a “cult”, he would develop a community of followers that are useful agents for implementing his plans. And this could be done in either of the two models above. People might follow him because the cult through a blood sacrifice by Savage, could take a sip of the blood sacrifice and not gain immortality but, in theory, reality, or propaganda, could extend their lives by some measure. This was part of the cult that surrounded him that CW’s Legends of Tomorrow touched on, for example.

Also, there are “blanks” in many of his histories, and some of the items you bring up are left for the reader to fill in. Which is one of the reasons he is so psychologically interesting to me. There are gaps and one can hypothesis about what is the reason for those gaps.

I will also concur that the art in the DC Universe 3-parter really made great use of his expressions and especially his eyes to give insight into the character. Again, those close-ups are ways of letting the reader fill in some blanks about what he is thinking/feeling behind the words. Of all of them, I think the DC Universe Presents may be the most interesting comics and open up Vandal for analysis, because of the ambiguity you mention.

Well, that’s my $0.02. Hopefully this has helped and will spark further debate, “hot takes”, etc.

Bringing up questions is always great. Just cuz I post a few, doesn’t mean we have to stick to them or only to them. That’s one of the things this club I hope will do. Bringing up questions and opinions about the psychology of the villain because people have different perspectives and that gives people something to consider they may not have before. :thinking:

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I’ll add to the reasons for human religions. A recognition that there is something/someone/some power beyond us. From Savage’s perspective, he’s personally seen evidence of powers and places beyond normal perspective. Which dovetails with @DeSade-acolyte thoughts that as egotistical as Savage is, he believes that even higher powers exist.

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One could break it down to an over simplification of “who sent the meteor that gave him immortality”. If he is “the chosen one to have this gift bestowed upon him”, it stands to reason he probably thinks some higher power, aka god(s), sent it.

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Great analysis, DeSade! The cult angle never occurred to me! I would make a terrible supervillain.

Full disclosure, I’m Christian, so I get that. But as Vandal comes from the dawn of man (I think?), it does make me wonder about the root of his practices. Since he’s been witness to the birth and fall of so many religions, it makes me ask why he believes his particular religious beliefs are right. The fact that he’s using astrological mapping and such to carry out a ritualistic series of murders suggests this he’s not following a more vague or agnostic belief that there’s a higher power out there; he seems to have a specific group in mind. Every faith group follows rules that have been delivered (or believe to have been delivered) by prophet (word of God), fellow man, community or whomever.

Would Vandal follow rules created by/or in union with his fellow man?

Or, scarier thought, given his powers - is he fully aware that he’s the creator of his own gods and their rules?

Or am I greatly overthinking all of this? :sweat_smile:

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(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 48 hours unless flagged)

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Vandal references the four horsemen on more than one occasion. Above in One Million DC, also in Superman Adventures and Suicide Squad… Does he view himself as a Christ figure or the Anti-Christ bring about the apocalypse?

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No it was a very interesting question. Later I realized in the DC Universe angels, demons, heaven, hell, the Spectre etc all exist so Savage knows there’s something out there, but being immortal maybe he thinks it doesn’t fully apply to him.

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There’s a glitch in the system that doesn’t like the name of Task Force X

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@WonderWoman_85 That’s an interesting thought, and moves along the idea that he’s possibly making the rules of his own religion.

Going back to the DC Universe Presents story, it’d be particularly disturbing. Since Vandal looks down on other men, if we assume he’s designing a religion based on his own internal logic, and not rules given to him by other men, then he personally believes the disemboweling of innocent women is something a higher power would seek/take pleasure in. What’s that say about the guy?

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I’m not only learning about history from y’all’s posts, I’m picking up new vocabulary from the comics. :flushed: :flushed: :flushed:

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Well, ya gotta admit, he’s probably right. I have no doubt it’d do quite well on the international market. Vandal knows sex sells. $$$

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What does it say about Abraham? (Genesis Chapter 22)
A major prophet in all 3 of major monotheistic religions. Recall that he was ready to offer a blood sacrifice to his god and only an agent of this god stayed his hand. So Abraham was absolutely ready, willing and literally had the knife in his hands, making a human sacrifice.

During a battle with the Israelites, the King of Moab gives his firstborn son and heir as a whole burnt offering. (2nd Kings 3:27) Also, Jephthah’s daughter in Judges 11. What does it say about them? Are they just as “evil” as Vandal for perform human blood sacrifice?

While also not common but defined as happening, both Greek and Roman polytheistic religion had a few human sacrifices.

According to Roman sources, Celtic Druids engaged in human sacrifice.

Tacitus reports that Germanic human sacrifice to, what he interprets as) Mercury, and to Isis specifically among the Suebians.

The Slavic Rus’ (Scandinavian Norsemen traders in northeastern Europe) included the sacrifice of a young female slave.

In China, death sacrifice was usually done by drowning, especially of female slaves as they would serve as concubines and servants to provide companionship in the afterlife. (Most of this seems to have happened between 700 and 350 BCE.

The Aztecs were well know for human sacrifice of prisoners, some give a numbers as high as of 85K to 250K per year.

The Incan numbers were not nearly as high only in the 50+ range. Although their was an example of as many as 4,000 servants, court officials, favorites, and concubines were killed upon the death of the Inca Huayna Capac in 1527.

These are just some case of various historical world religions. There are more as well.

So it would seem that Vandal is by no means an isolated case, nor confined to strictly polytheistic religions.

What does it says about all these other people, as well? The practice, worldwide, was not something unheard of by any stretch.

The question arises, since all documented accounts of human sacrifice ceertainly occur after Vandal’s gaining of immortality. Did he play a roll in the development of such practices?

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I think it’s simpler and more practical than that. I am basing this on the Freudian quote/idea that “Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.”

While he is looking at bringing a new world order, a concept many understand from The New Testament, Book of Revelation. I think it more likely he is putting it in colloquial terms, that those around him have an easier time understanding. This would certainly be a linguistic trait he would have picked up over the centuries. Using slang, colloquialisms, and even idioms of the time, means he doesn’t have to explain the entire concept. It is a verbal shorthand. This is something many people who have relocated from one geography and/or culture (or sub-culture) to another often do.

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Vandal specifies foreign market. Why no blue movie demand here in the states? Is Supes monopolizing that demographic? Something’s afoot. :thinking:

And I look forward to reading everything else happening in this thread as soon as I get home. #ontopic

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Hi @CynicalPink
I seem to recall that his sacrificing started even before he became immortal. So while being immortal may have changed his view of himself and the world, it may not have changed his pre-meteor beliefs. It could be a way for him to reconnect with his past. To deepen his understanding of just how much he has evolved since his immortality event. Certainly with the meteor coming from the sky, I can see him being a bit obsessed with elements of astronomy. Many temples of various religions were built around specific celestial events and operated as calendars, so the proper scarifies could be made at the proper times.

Not every faith group follows hard rules that have been delivered. Some empowered the ruler as the god(s) representative on earth and their world was “godly rules” even though those rules could change one ruler to the nexts. The pharaohs of Egypt certainly seem to fall into this category. The same could be argued to a lesser extent in Catholicism, with the Popes being God’s earthly leader.

I certainly wouldn’t put it past him, as he aged and evolved, that he may have become aware that of his part in being the creator of these gods. However, to be fair, pretty much all religions are created, or at a minimum codified by means of Devine revelation, by man.

Religion is certainly reliant on man. Because they have fallen out of favor, we now consider Greek, Roman & Norse religions as “mythologies” and not religions. They are not treated with the same reverence as currently practiced religions.

Are you over thinking this? I don’t think so. What do you think of your own psychology by delving into the psychology of others, even if they are fictional characters. FWIW, I have found that having delved into the psychology of characters as an actor, certainly helped give me insight into my own psyche.

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The US has stricter rules about releasing such films, including the the requirement for signing of both consent decrees and evidence that the participants are 18 or older.

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Sorry! Originally badly worded on my part. I meant what’s it say about a guy doing that in modern times? Is that kind of sacrifice still honored or taking place? (Sincerely asking. I don’t know. )

That’d be a dark and interesting twist if they ever gave him backstory suggesting he played a part in creating those rituals.

(Typing blind! Please excuse typos)

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Did not know that, either! Thank you for being so thorough in your replies. Part of what I’ve enjoyed in this post (and the 3D chaos) are the facts you and some others have applied to the discussion

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Since it would be murder, and that’s pretty much illegal everywhere, that is a sociological question.

I think it’s kinda time is mostly irrelevant to Vandal. Even going back to when it was outlawed in Rome, some 2100+ years ago. 2100 years, only 500 years for others, that’s gotta seem like a drop in the bucket for somebody as old as Vandal. Look a Salem’s witch burnings, they were essentially the same reason flipped on its head and that was only 400 years ago.

When trying to look at it from Vandal’s perspective, let’s say he was middle/late cro-magnon era, I can see him saying I’ve been doing this for 30.000 years, why should I change?
It’s as likely as not that sometime in the next 10,000 years religions that practice human sacrifice may indeed be “back in fashion”. If he practiced them thhen and feels he is essentially above or more likely beyond the law, why should a law on the books prohibiting murder stop him.

This is why I brought up the question of given his length of time to observe humanity, he would certainly have a different perspective than mortal folks. Perhaps us mortals “just don’t get it”. An appalling idea to the mortals of modern times, but that doesn’t mean we are “right”, it means that we believe we are “right” and have the power to inflict our version of “right” onto other people.

Most of our social ideas basically spring from perhaps 300 years ago at the longest. Let us not forget things in our own world where people in power took lives in the name of their beliefs. Salem & the Inquisition both spring to mind. Both of which occurred 1500 years after the founding of their basic religion, with the “blessings” of both Protestant and Catholic Churches, respectively. We see that stoning of those that have committed adultery were carried out by Islamic believers still within the last 100 years. Druid sacrifices still going on 1200+ years ago. Why? Because in all cases some folks believed it was the will and requirement of the god(s) and they had the power to do just that. Are we really all that different?

Also let us not forget that in some instances, people volunteered to be a sacrifice, believing it would bring them and/or their family power, prestige, etc. Should we allow people who want to make that sacrifice have the freedom to do so? It is their life after all.

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