Poison Ivy (2022) | Book Discussion | Spoilers Ahead!

Honestly, I don’t even remember what exactly was said or if it even was you. I just caught some talk on the periphery that something happened in this book that could potentially be construed as a way of breaking up HarlIvy. I told myself to watch out for it when reading the issues, and didn’t read it as the potential end of Harley and Ivy when I did reach it. But… in hindsight, I feel like I should have left that comment out as it’s not my job to police the way people feel about things. Sometimes Moth should shut up…

That’s my feeling!

On one hand, I completely get this. During the Casablanca WAL, I poked fun a bit at how the female characters were just throwing themselves at Humphrey Bogart. I also roll my eyes a lot when reading old comics that tend to give an attractive female character to a hero like they’re some kind of accessory. This does happen a lot and it’s done with no thought to the women, their characters, or their story arcs. It’s just done to make the hero seem more manly. So, I do see this as something that needs to change now that we’re in 2023.

On the other hand, there was at least one specific occasion where I felt this argument was being used prematurely. There was one ship where I felt many fans didn’t support it right off the bat, and jumped to this argument before anything had really happened to defend why they shouldn’t give it a chance. As someone who supported the ship, this was very frustrating. It’s very difficult to get comic fans to try new things in the best of circumstances. It’s a thousand times harder when they believe they have a perfectly valid socio-political reason for writing it off. Because that was the case, it felt like there was nothing I could say or it didn’t matter how good the stories actually were. It had already been decided.

I’m not bringing that up to relitigate the ship in question. That’s all done and dusted now. I’m just saying that I understand and am sympathetic to the issue. However, I also feel it can be used to cut certain storylines off at the bud when the fanbase just doesn’t want to give something a chance. I don’t feel that those two things are mutually exclusive.

I do agree that it has stopped, for the most part. I’m very glad that Harley and Ivy are no longer coded and are together out in the open. The Wonder Woman thing is funny because, for a while, I thought they already acknowledged that she was bisexual. I read her that way. There was a moment in Rebirth where I felt Rucka had heavily suggested it. When I revisited that moment, it was… a bit softer and less clear than what I remembered. DC should have Diana come out. It should be clear and something that’s a factor in her stories. The fact this hasn’t happened yet shows a bit of cowardice from the publisher.

:muscle: :raised_hands: :muscle:

Reading this made me burst out laughing even while it made me disappointed with WB. I’m going to avoid doing a deep-dive :wink: on this because I don’t think I can within the bounds of the community rules. Suffice to say this was sexist and the decision makers are probably not even fully aware as to why this was sexist. I’ll say this, they were afraid to let Batman do it because it would hurt their toy sales. I buy a lot of toys, but I avoid buying Batman toys. If they let Batman do the thing, I will buy at least THREE Batriarchy toys. Your move, WB!

Ohhhh! Good shout! We haven’t really seen her in a bit, and I would love if that’s the case. I was also thinking it could be Woodrue again, but… I’m kind of hoping we freshen things up with a new villain.

I feel the same way! Sometimes I think that Ivy is the only “hero” addressing the things that most need to be addressed…

:joy: :sandwich: :banehappyhqtas:

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts, @Razzzcat ! It was a pleasure to read them, as always! :purple_heart: :hugs:

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Hey Moth!! :hugs: :green_heart: Thanks (for reading my nerd-rants :laughing: and) for sharing your thoughts.

No no no, it’s valid to notice that some Harley-Ivy fans have been so scarred by years of coding, baiting, sexism, disappointment and half-assed attempts to keep them apart, that many assume the worst. lol, It’s reactionary, I know.

I think I know which relationship, and I remember because you are still the only person who has ever defended it to me w/ any nuance or thought.

I will! :laughing: If it’s the one I’m thinking of…

Summary

Supes & Diana in New 52…?

(Again, some fans are so scarred, they get reactionary)

Most all people I’ve come across who support it have used stale canned responses like “it’s fun”, “the popular characters should date more”, and “He deserves a woman like her”, which just makes me furious for its narrow-mindedness and arrogance. Made the whole thing feel cheap, which wasn’t going to help people discover the creative effort that was made.

The arguments against weren’t particularly good either, tho. Everyone just sounded stubborn and afraid of change, rather than offering constructive criticism. :-1: #HatersGonnaHate

Admittedly, I was one of the people who rolled my eyes when I saw it and systematically erased it from my brain after seeing the way it was regarded by some— serving him, his fans, their fantasy fulfillment. As if Diana, THE Amazon Champion—a literal god, was just his arm candy. :expressionless: (And then some acted as if Superman couldn’t possibly date anyone else, because he’s an alien?? Uh. Date another alien. :woman_judge:t2: Problem solved!)

Anyway. You did NOT do that, and I appreciate it a lot. Personally, I didn’t hate the story. It :100: worked (where others have absolutely not); HOWEVER :nerd_face: I still kinda never want it to happen again. Or at least not for a long time.

I’ve said it before:
Diana makes more sense with Lois or Kara or Barbra Ann, or (dare I say) even Batman, since they are (overall) far more like Steve than Clark is…imo. Honestly, Diana is more likely to hook up w/ Ivy or John Stewart, too. Pairing her w/ Superman repeatedly just shows a huge lack of imagination and misunderstanding of her character in my book. :woman_shrugging:t2: Not to mention blocks creative opportunities w/ new or lesser known characters. I want variety and uniqueness when they do things like this (and a good story), but that’s just me. Comic fans are finicky and often prefer having their nostalgia placated, so I’m probably a minority.

Ps. One of these days, we ought to start a thread to talk about these alternative ships—The ones that are valid vs. The ones that just feel blah, and why.

Anyway. Back on topic I go… :clapper:

They go back n’ forth. They hint at it, then DC takes their foot off the gas. :roll_eyes: Agree. Baby steps, I guess.

I’ve talked about this so much, partially because it’s just such a tired tactic. Fake-controversy is practically the only tool in their marketing arsenal, and you’re right. They clearly didn’t realize how rude the subtext was—they just saw a way to make money. :moneybag:

I don’t buy Batman anything, either. I don’t hate Batman, I just always vote w/ my wallet, and I don’t support the Batriarchy on principle. I would if they treated every character w/ the same respect he gets, but they don’t. Until that changes, I will continue my nerd-embargo. Ditto :v:“You’re move, WB!” I’m out.

Same. I know it’s a bit of a stretch, but I’d love to see her. :purple_heart:

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Almost forgot to share. Just gonna leave this right here :coffee:

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Hey, whatever, I get it. I become irrationally cranky whenever there’s a Superman thought bubble where he says, “But I’m really just like everyone else.” :laughing: As fans, there are things that trigger us, so I get it. I imagine it’s even more pronounced giving the history that DC has with HarlIvy and coding and baiting…

Well, alright, if you insist… :laughing:

Summary

I could go in-depth about this, so I’m just going to stick to the broad strokes for brevity’s sake. The reason why I really liked the Supes and Wondy pairing had everything to do with how I read the characters from their earliest roots in the Golden Age and because of how I believed Morrison was turning Superman back to those roots in the early days of New 52 Action Comics. In the Golden Age, both Kal and Diana were progressive social crusaders. In the late 30’s, Superman really channeled the ideals of social democracy and targeted corruption within American industry and society that prayed on the helpless. Similarly, Diana’s Golden Age stories focused on feminist themes that were revolutionary for the time period (some even by today’s standards) and many of her adventures had her aiding society’s most vulnerable like the silly milk story I blogged about. I could definitely see these two together as partners in progressive crusading.

That being said, Superman hadn’t really been portrayed like that in a long, long time. Over the years, the social democratic themes of his stories faded away or were eve undermined. Post-Crisis Superman was more of a moderate, uncontroversial, Patriotic kind of guy compared to his late 30’s counter-part. That’s how people really started to see him. I think that’s where many of the negative reactions to the relationship initially came from. One Wonder Woman fan at the time described it as making Diana the “head-cheerleader to Kal’s star quarterback.” When thinking of how Kal was characterized Post-Crisis, I get why that was the vibe that many thought of.

But that brings me to Morrison’s work on Action Comics for the New 52 and how that changed Superman. Morrison intentionally revived Superman’s socialist roots. They had Supes going toe-to-toe with corrupt Capitalists, defending occupy Wall Street-esque protestors, and rebuilding Metropolis slums into quality housing for the poor. Morrison’s Superman was looking to actively and progressively change the world for the better similar to the way Diana strives to. In essence, Superman once again became a person I felt was worthy of Diana (not the other way around). In that context, the pairing made perfect sense to me and I loved it. Do I think DC did a great job of communicating the changes to Superman’s character and keeping it consistent? Ehhhhhh… and maybe that’s why very few really saw their relationship the way I did… or maybe it’s just that I’m crazy (I am crazy) but I swear it’s there.

Ultimately, there are things that I can’t argue out of people. For example, if you are someone who believes that Kal or Diana should be with Lois and Steve respectively and no one else then I’m not likely going to make a dent in that perception (I’ve tried). I also can’t answer for the questionable opinions held by my fellow Superman fans who I’m almost constantly disagreeing with on a regular basis. However, I will end this by pointing out that a lot of the great fears of the Supes/Wondy ship in the beginning never really panned out. Diana did not just simply become a support character to Kal. They very rarely even appeared in one another’s solo titles and didn’t affect the stories told much if at all. Diana did not become the damsel in distress to Kal’s superhero. If anything, Wondy saved Supes from danger more than he saved her (which, in a way, did kind of make him like Steve a bit). Basically, I never saw their relationship as demoting Diana to being an accessory or a secondary figure the way that many feared she would when the relationship started. Maybe I missed something, but I just never saw it. In the end, though, it’s over and I don’t think it is coming back anytime soon, but I enjoyed it while it lasted.

I could say a lot more about this issue. Maybe I’ll do a blog post on it someday and really write a novel, but that’s enough for now. This one tends to get me in trouble with two separate fan bases…

Again, I pretty much already read her that way. Going back to Diana in the Golden Age, her bisexuality is stunningly clear from all the way back in the '40’s. They, of course, couldn’t come out and say it because it was the '40’s, but you can’t tell me that a lot of the Amazonian traditions from back then weren’t sexually charged. They so very were. I wish DC would have her come out, but… the fact she hasn’t doesn’t change how I read her.

:muscle: :raised_hands: :muscle:

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I wasn’t far into this series yet. Not sure if this is the right place to post either, but it’s such a smooth, engaging read that I fully binged. Got to the part with Woodrue, which might be the most boss thing I’ve seen Pam do. It was great seeing Harley for a minute. Now she’s learned that she can travel through the network of fungal threads, which I hope comes in handy later when the hoards take over. :zombie:

Bet. They need to look up the term micro aggression.

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This is the place! Glad you’re enjoying the series! Pam’s showdown with Woodrue was pretty boss (and kinda gross)!

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I’ll bookmark it then. Thanks!

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No prob!

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I just went back and read it again. The gross is why it’s boss :smile: :skull: CEO. That’s willpower.

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:laughing:

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Thanks for the rec, this is a cool song, too! glad to see you back in here

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@TheCosmicMoth Thank you for this! I don’t disagree, even if I don’t want it to happen again :laughing: It’s unfortunate that not all fans can give things a chance, and it’s even more unfortunate that as consumers it gets really hard to tell what’s worth trying. Our trust gets betrayed far too much. :purple_heart:

@Zips4tw Welcome! :wave: Come on back anytime! Glad you’re enjoying it.

@MaxR Thanks, buddy! Let me know if you check it out! [edit] I requested it be added tot the library. :white_check_mark:

Ps everyone! :star_struck: Heres some variants.

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I’ve noticed that sometimes readers can mistake Harley’s kindness for weakness, or her strangeness for stupidity. More than her physical abilities even, it gives her an element of surprise which is part of her strength, however. Feminine strength doesn’t always have to look like “a woman acting like a man”.

:rofl: Bane’s six foot sub. Ded.

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image


Also, friends :green_heart: I think Legion of Bloom is…possibly my new favorite team name now.

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:thinking: It’s interesting that Ivy is so terrified of Batman in Knight Terrors…and suburbia. Its also interesting that…nothing is matching up to the ends of the current (ongoing) Gotham books right now when Terrors Hits. as you would think ivy would have accompanied Harely to Arkham Tower as they were on a field trip with Harelys Community collage class (Harely has been forced to be a professor of Psycology in tini’s run of her book).

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Issue 13 didn’t show up in my Comixology account, and now I don’t see a button to “Subscribe” anymore. Wondering if it’s because the next issue doesn’t arrive until September, maybe?

It’s very possible Woodrue is still behind things down the line, but I think they should use her at some point, even if we think we’re looking for a murderer, but it turns out she’s on a mission doing the same thing as Ivy.

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Hey @d.Manha! :wave: I just checked and I don’t see a subscription button either. :thinking: You’re right that’s probably the reason—since they completed the original run, it must be a reset of sorts. September 5th is Issue 14. I’d check back then and try again. :purple_heart:

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Thanks! I haven’t seen it happen before and I thought it was some kind of glitch, but a reset makes sense. I’ll check back. I forget what I’m reading if it doesn’t automatically arrive!

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:sweat_smile: Same! And no problem at all. You’re welcome. :green_heart:

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Same thing happened to me and I assumed it had something to do with the run originally being scheduled to end with issue 12, but then I almost got charged for Harley Quinn: Black + White + Redder, because I still had Harley Quinn Black + White + Red in my subs from years ago. So I don’t actually know how comixology subs are working now lol.

I’ll probably just adjust to the DCUI Ultra schedule for now.

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