Oh, that’s right! Silly me - thanks!
Anyhoo - final Batgirl backup today, plus a preview in most issues! What do people think?
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I know how that goes for the longest time DC was the cartoons and live-action films for me, I knew there were comics and have bought a few collected editions, but I did not really get into them till last year.
also historically the comic book industry as a whole did not really know what to do with their strong female characters Like Lois Lane, Selina Kyle/Catwoman, Barbara Gordan. They defiantly did not know what to do with Steph until relatively recently. (and the comics code authority Comics Code Authority | DC Database | Fandom and old gender theory did not help). Also, the artist and author of Batgirls did state they are fans in this article: First Look: Talking Batgirls with Becky Cloonan and Michael W. Conrad | DC (reposted)
.why are you referring to Cassandra her as CassINO?
I recall not having to show my work till I got into middle school.
side note: my Cassandra Cane comes more from the Graphic Novel shadow of the batgirl.
I’d say that they theoretically knew what to do with Steph in 2009. 
That being said, I like a lot of what Tynion did with Steph, but it definitely seemed like he wasn’t able to do more than bring her back and feature her - he was juggling too much to really give her a huge spotlight. But without him, I doubt she would really be back now.
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Tynion said he was a fan, too, so that alone doesn’t fill me with hope. If they want to cement her original origin again and have a panel where she and Steph walk past Harper Row and don’t recognize her, confirming they have no connection, then I’ll give it a shot.
Otherwise, the mistakes continue.
“CassINO”, or “Cassandra In Name Only” is what I use to reference Orphan, the Tynion-made duplicate of Cassandra.
I don’t know about that. He didn’t really do anything new, special, or unique with Steph or Cass. Really, I think the bigger factors were fan demand and Scott Snyder being his pal; Tynion just happened to be the guy DC let write [some version of] them.
We’ve chatted about this before, I think, and while I don’t necessarily disagree that Tynion didn’t do anything unique with Steph and Cass, but without him, Snyder wouldn’t have pushed for them to happen - when I talked to Snyder at a con about Batman Eternal, he said bringing Steph back was all James.
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Om harper is still active in DC, in Joker’s second story staring punchline.
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Is it really that good an idea to have 6 wonder woman books in one month?
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The gimick of Infinate Fronter is that “everything is happened” so apprently one book with Cass could refer to the Tynion verson and another book that releases in the same week would have her reference the '00’s verson.
No idea! A lot of them are miniseries, though why they couldn’t turn those stories into Sensational Wonder Woman, with nice extended arcs, instead of cannibalizing the market competing at the same time…I dunno.
But that’s a bit off topic.
I think the gimmick of Infinite Frontier is that the Batman and Robin Eternal Cass and the No Man’s Land Cass are the same Cass - she now has ALL of the memories, and stories can refer to both of them because they are the same person.
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Let her be active–but the deifying she got, the bootlicking from the rest of the Bat-clan? That’s got to go. Where [especially] Cass, Steph and the others are concerned? Ideally, she should be a stranger. Maybe give her to a writer that knows how to develop characters.
Be that as it may, I question if DC would’ve allowed it if he wasn’t friends with Snyder, whose more marketable name they could squeeze into the credits to boost sales. Considering how many writers have claimed to be fans of these heroines, I just don’t think Tynion’s involvement is crucial or vital [or beneficial] to them, no more so than Chuck Austen was to Nightcrawler.
Therein lies the premise’s fundamental problem for Cass and, I imagine, many other characters: both origins can’t happen. She can’t be both characters, as they are not as similar as Tynion would like to believe. They don’t mix together, thematically, chronologically, or–logistically. A good enough writer could try and mesh them together, but not without more or less negating one in favor of the other.
Any “sameness” or what does/doesn’t count is basically something that has to be assumed by each reader, because DC doesn’t want to pick one, for whatever reason, despite the reinvented version having exactly nothing going for it, serving no purpose.
It’s what I was saying about “show your work”. DC apparently doesn’t want to put in the effort, even though it’d be easier than some balancing act of good origin and terrible origin.
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It’s undoubtedly because of Snyder’s name - but that name means nothing if it’s not used to do things like bring back Steph and Cass. If they aren’t brought back, then nothing can benefit them. I am not one who believes that “meh” or even some level of “bad” appearances are worse than no appearances at all.
And if something doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t. But why make yourself keep following it, if it gives you such distress?
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You’re thinking doomsday clock.
As I understand it Infinite frontier reintroduced the more than 52 worlds in the multiverse idea and reintroduced the original DC multiverse in the form of Multiverse 2. (i just checked my copy of infinite frontier issue 6) which is also where the bad guys win and has a connection to New earth if I am interpreting it right.
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There’s almost nothing that would make me think Doomsday Clock. I do not like the idea of the Metaverse or whatever the “base level, manipulable” universe. And I think that the original DC Multiverse was restored by Convergence, expanded by Death Metal into Infinite Frontier.
But fundamentally, I think that Death Metal (for all that I really dislike it) connected everyone’s memories, so that Steph and Cass now remember both Batman Eternal and Tec 647-649, Batman and Robin Eternal and No Man’s Land.
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DC’s higher-ups at the time, specifically DiDio, never cared for them. Snyder’s name sold books; bringing them back wasn’t a priority. I could see Dan thinking that it’d be fine to leave them in limbo, just because he didn’t like them. I’m sure that if another writer, on another book was bringing them back, it would’ve gotten noticed. Marketing just hyped up Eternal because “big anniversary story”.
But to be more succinct, I find nothing particularly special about Tynion, or his writing, to suggest he, specifically, was a unique factor. He’s just the one we ended up with.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease. As a consumer, willing to give my money to DC for a product, I’m making it clear what I want in that product. Sure, it’s fairly specific, but all because they kept screwing up even after their screw-ups blew up in their faces. I want to make it clear, I’m not buying “The Adventures of Tynion’s Poorly-Made Clones” because of the foundational problems of their reboots/reinventions, not that Cass or Steph (the good versions) are at fault or can’t lead their own books. Pre-Flashpoint proved they can, even if the current writers can’t.
Unfortunately, when I’ve asked for specific titles/issue numbers for the allegation that “they’re back as they were”, I mostly get crickets. Maybe that’s because no one is interested in answering, or the very ambiguous “just go with it” vibe Infinite Frontier has been purported to have, doesn’t leave anything specific. [shrug]
People have said that the reinventions are just like their previous incarnations, and, uh–no. No, they are not. Similar, in a few cosmetic ways, but look closer and the differences are night and day. So when I hear “they remember everything, both histories count”, but don’t get much more specific than that, largely because of the “pick your own headcanon” thing DC’s doing, I feel I have to point out the discrepancy, because I don’t think they get to be lazy. They lost my trust and they’re not earning it back with lackadaisical writing or the thin veils of questionable promises.
If I could describe Tynion’s reinvention of Cass (and to an extent, Steph) in a single word, it would be “disrespectful”. I’ve got more words, but not all of them are polite and I’m sure there’s a character limit. I see other writers deal with “Orphan” and “Spoiler-Alert”, which tells me they’re not who I want to read, even if those scribes are better than Tynion. The reinventions were a mistake, Cass’ most of all; so antithetical to the character, that the two histories just do not work together. They’re proving it by not actually choosing one, just SAYING both happened and letting individual readers figure it out. It’s like acknowledging the mistake, and expecting other people to imagine it’s been fixed.
Thus, when I hear news of a “Batgirls” book, which I’ve mentioned previously holds some meaning to me, I can’t be excited, much less feel compelled to support, because of their unwillingness to–do what class?
Put in the work.
If they don’t want to fix it, they should step aside for someone who will.
[phew] Okay, that was a long one, people. Take a break, stretch your legs, rehydrate if you need to.
Well, man, all I can say is, I have just as much fan credentials as you do, and I think that Tynion has done a fine job, and rants like this are pretty crummy to read when one is trying to get conversation going about something one is excited about.
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I enjoyed the Batgirls backups and the brief preview. Most of what we’ve seen is character work, which I think is important for these two, since their voices haven’t really been highlighted for a while (or in a BG POV).
In the most recent bit, I thought their reactions were spot on, and I love the family feeling some of the previews give, including Babs (and Dick and Haley?!).
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These three backups feel mostly like connecting pieces between the issues of Nightwing, but are full of character from the art and dialogue. I hope the plotting is a bit tighter in the ongoing, but I definitely feel good so far about the characterization.
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Agreed, an ongoing needs more plot. Character is what would sell/turn me off the book at this stage though, so for me their strategy worked.
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…did it sour your expectations for the title?
It’s souring enjoyment of discussion, which is why I come to these boards.
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