I think most heroes come off as neither religious nor hostile to religion. For most characters it’s better to let the reader fill in the blanks, which excludes no one. If it’s pertinent to the story or the character then use it.
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@BatWatch
There have been many characters over the years that have explicitly celebrated Christmas as a time of reflection and joy & not commercialism. Those are specifically a reference to some deference to Christianity.
It is very clear that Marvel’s Daredevil is Catholic.
Most superheroes are defined as trying to help their fellow people and trying to do good.
How many heroes operate under the golden rule. Batman certainly believes in doing onto others as you would have them do onto you.
Would have them quoting the New Testament? Wearing crucifixes?
Some have thwarted attacks from happening at churches, synagogues, & mosques over the years.
What does going to church regularly have to do with non-Catholic theology.
Exactly what are “Christian values”?
There are so many sects of Christianity which would you them represent?
Why should any superhero or person fall into your definition of “values”, let alone “Christian values”.
There certainly is a media bias. We see no where close to 15% of female superheroes having abortions. Are we to draw from this that comics are “pro-life” rather than “pro-choice”.
Certainly less than 4.5 percent of all superheroes are LBGTQ? By your rationale, they deserve greater coverage, do they not or it is media bias. Correct?
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Daredevil is Catholic . Personally don’t care as long as it makes sense to the character and not just there for whatever . Same with lgbtq
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Anyone else think it doesn’t really make sense for Batman to be an atheist? I get stuff like Scott Snyder saying “he believes in what’s provable” and all that, but he’s been on the same team as Zauriel, who is canonically an Angel.
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Daredevil is a serious Catholic
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Batman specifically is the world’s greatest detective and the man with whom he has taken that title from. It is never specifically stated what his religious affiliation is. Although I wouldn’t mind seeing Batman, as Holmes was at least a member of The Church of England. That would be awesome and hilarious at the sane time.
And not totally unthinkable, since he was raised by Alfred Pennyworth who’s most likely religious affiliation would be CofE.
Harley Quinn is Jewish.
Interesting. She certainly knows some Yiddish and may indeed be Jewish by bloodline, since that is matriarchal. There is certainly substantial circumstantial evidence her mother may be. However, there is an episode in which she asks Poison Ivy about getting an Xmas tree. Of course, Ivy does her best Queen Victoria and is “not amused”. So it depends on how much one reads into Harley as to any conflict and/or apathy as to her specific religious ideology.
Morbach, my,thoughts exactly
DeSade, if Wayne’s are old money that makes CoE a high possibility
Based on what he’s seen in the world and beyond it, Agnostic would be my guess
Snyder can think what he wants but that doesn’t erase 75 years so character development
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It seems like we are on the same page about diversity and anti-Christian bias. Mostly, I just want good stories and demographics don’t matter much to me, but if a company is going to brag about how important inclusion and diversity is to them, then let’s actually be inclusive and diverse, and it’s hard not to see certain groups exclusion as a deliberate editorial choice.
As far as many superheroes perhaps being Christians without it being said, yeah, I guess that’s possible, but that’s not how the wonders of diversity are applied to representation with other demographics. DC didn’t say, “Some of our characters are probably gay and we just aren’t going to mention it.” DC blows the trumpets to herald the arrival of every new LGBT character, and I don’t mind them bringing in new homosexual characters. It’s an interesting part of characters lives well worth exploring. It shapes who they are. You know what else is an interesting topic crucial in shaping characters and fleshing them out? Characters religious beliefs, but this is rarely explored especially if they are Christians.
Yes, I agree there are many characters who are literal angels though their link to Christianity is also not always explicit. There are also many Asgardians, Greek gods, Demons, ect. These aren’t generally the heroes of the story.
I don’t think I am exaggerating at all by saying Christians are the most underrepresented group. You can only think of one Muslim superhero? Two come to mind immediately for me, Simon Baz and Miss Marvel, but let’s just take the one that came to mind for you. Christians make up 75% of the population and Muslims make up 1.1% of the population. If DC were truly interested in creating characters that represent the diversity of the United States, then for every 1 explicitly Muslim superhero you could name you should be able to name 68 explicitly Christian superheroes.
Who have we got so far for Christian superheroes?
Huntress, Azrael, Batman, Battle Pope, Doctor Midnight, Catwoman, Spoiler, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Gambit, Thomas Wayne
I kind of want to run down this entire list in detail, but I’ll strain to keep it brief.
Battle Pope is a mockery of Christianity. That doesn’t count.
Batman is an atheist.
I don’t see any evidence Spoiler is Christian.
Thomas Wayne is Christian, but Thomas Wayne isn’t a superhero and does little other than remain dead anyway. Doesn’t count.
Catwoman and Gambit are lapsed Catholics. Lapsed Catholics are people who were born into Catholicism and then more or less rejected it. Half of all lapsed Catholics don’t even consider themselves Christian, so let’s count one of them. Huntress is often a lapsed Catholic, but sometimes she’s devout, so we will be generous and count her.
Doctor Midnight is a pretty deep cut character of minimum importance. That’s not much representation, but let’s count it to be generous and count him.
I’ve read a ton of Jean Paul Valley’s adventures. There’s a lot of talk of the Order of St. Dumas but little of anything related to actual Christianity. Still, it’s a fictional branch of Catholicism, so let’s count it again out of generosity.
Nightcrawler and Rogue are Christians.
So this message board of uber comic book nerds can only come up with five Christians superheroes versus three muslim superheroes, Miss Marvel, Simon Bat and Nightrunner. Instead of a Christian/Muslim ratio of 68 to 1 like reality, we have 1.7 to 1. I think it’s fair to say Christians are underrepresented.
@Desade The animated series can differ from the comics; after all, in the series bible–no pun intended–Renee Montoya joined the police force after the death of her cop husband. It’s possible that Harley’s religious affiliation was never really set in stone for a while.
@msgtv Agnostic would be the closest logical choice for Batman, and I think that’s what Snyder may’ve been leaning towards (but I can’t say for sure). Making a character like that full-on atheist seems–limiting to me.
DeSade-Acolyte,
“There have been many characters over the years that have explicitly celebrated Christmas as a time of reflection and joy & not commercialism. Those are specifically a reference to some deference to Christianity.”
No, it’s not. 90% of people in the United States celebrate Christmas even though only 75% of them are Christian, and almost every one of them would say they are focusing on family and joy not commercialism. Celebrating a holiday doesn’t mean you subscribe to the original cause of the holiday. I usually don’t think much about the War for Independence on Independence Day, but I’ll take the time off and probably have some joy and do some reflection.
“It is very clear that Marvel’s Daredevil is Catholic.”
Absolutely. As I outlined in detail to BatJamags, it’s not that there are no Christian superheroes but that they are vastly underrepresented.
"Most superheroes are defined as trying to help their fellow people and trying to do good.
“How many heroes operate under the golden rule. Batman certainly believes in doing onto others as you would have them do onto you.”
Right. There are certain values imbued into Western culture that not only line up with Christianity but I would say are there in large part because of Christian influence. Consequentially, many things that are nearly unanimously agreed upon as good are also reflective of Christian values. That doesn’t mean that characters like Batman try to live Christian values in all areas of their life just because they agree on some principles.
“Would have them quoting the New Testament? Wearing crucifixes?”
If I had my way, I’d probably have more characters explore spiritual aspects of their lives in the ways regular people explore spiritual aspects of their lives including a lot of different perspectives and behaviors. If you are asking if I think Nightwing should quote, “Thou shalt not kill,” before bashing Deathstroke in the face with a crucifix, then no, I think that would be rather hack writing, but do I think it would be interesting to see Dick wrestle with how to fight for justice while still implementing the value of turning the other cheek? Yeah, absolutely. Religion is an important part of just about everybody’s life and does a lot to inform your morality. Heroes constantly wrestle with issues of morality, and yet this rich landscape for character exploration goes unexplored.
“Some have thwarted attacks from happening at churches, synagogues, & mosques over the years.”
So? In what way does that represent Christian superheroes? I’d hope any superhero would stop those acts.
“What does going to church regularly have to do with non-Catholic theology.”
I have no idea what you mean. I’m guessing you may have read meaning into one of my previous comments that I did not intend.
“Exactly what are “Christian values”?”
The values taught in the Bible.
“There are so many sects of Christianity which would you them represent?”
Why in the world would I choose one? How would that represent society and how would that work for maximizing story potential?
“Why should any superhero or person fall into your definition of “values”, let alone “Christian values”.”
I didn’t say they should. I simply pointed out that Christians are underrepresented in comics which is factually accurate. Would I personally like to see more? Yeah, but DC Comics gets to make their own decisions and I can give them my money or go elsewhere.
"There certainly is a media bias. We see no where close to 15% of female superheroes having abortions. Are we to draw from this that comics are “pro-life” rather than “pro-choice”. "
You seem to misunderstand the nature of the pro-choice position. Pro-choice doesn’t mean you choose to kill your own unborn child. Pro-choice means you support the right of women in general to kill their unborn children. Every single female superhero could have a child and still be pro-choice, so whether or not any heroines have personally killed their child is irrelevant to the political issue, but I don’t know of any super heroine claims on either pro-life or pro-choice. Do you?
“Certainly less than 4.5 percent of all superheroes are LBGTQ? By your rationale, they deserve greater coverage, do they not or it is media bias. Correct?”
That depends entirely on how you feel about retcons. The vast majority of characters and basically all major characters were created in a time where the homosexual population was probably much smaller and definitely much less well known, so though they weren’t perfectly representative at the time, they were much more close to the commonly understood sexual landscape. Now, I suppose you could argue that if we want to update for the times we could have one out of every twenty older characters suddenly become homosexual despite the fact almost all of them have a long established history of heterosexuality, but I personally love continuity and prefer it not be scrapped all New 52 style. I much prefer creating new and interesting characters than simply changing the history of older characters, but I know some disagree. I’d point to characters like Kate Kane as being a good newly created LGBT character who I quite enjoyed with J.H.Williams III and James Tynion’s writing. I think it’s pretty clear DC Comics and other comic companies have been working hard at creating more LGBT characters or LGBTifying the already existing characters. Out of the five most prominent DC superheroines, Batgirl, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Supergirl and Wonder Woman, three of them are bisexual. That’s way over average.
For clarity, I never said DC had to represent the United States population. They have a right to have an agenda and represent whatever they want. They are a private business. I’m just pointing out their hypocrisy in claiming to want diversity while not actually pursuing it.
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@BatWatch
What do you want? How do you want them portrayed? What do you define as “inclusive” media?
I can’t help but notice you made no mention of increasing the number of abortions in comics. Why is that?
And for 75% of the country being “Christian”. A vast swath of them certainly don’t go to religious services weekly? So your entire “lapsed Catholic” argument applies to “lapsed Christians” too, arguably if not more so, statistically speaking.
Not to mention a lack of in depth knowledge of their own, as they allege, sacred texts. Or as I call them mythology.
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If you are counting Marvel and TV shows then Dust, Isis, and Halo are Muslim as well. Sorta.
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Okay, now I’m starting to think that opening a discussion about religion on the Internet wasn’t the best idea…
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“What do you want? How do you want them portrayed?”
If I had my way, I’d probably have more characters explore spiritual aspects of their lives in the ways regular people explore spiritual aspects of their lives including a lot of different perspectives and behaviors. If you are asking if I think Nightwing should quote, “Thou shalt not kill,” before bashing Deathstroke in the face with a crucifix, then no, I think that would be rather hack writing, but do I think it would be interesting to see Dick wrestle with how to fight for justice while still implementing the value of turning the other cheek? Yeah, absolutely. Religion is an important part of just about everybody’s life and does a lot to inform your morality. Heroes constantly wrestle with issues of morality, and yet this rich landscape for character exploration goes unexplored.
“What do you define as “inclusive” media?”
I haven’t used the term “inclusive” media.
“I can’t help but notice you made no mention of increasing the number of abortions in comics. Why is that?”
It wasn’t germane to the conversation. You asked if super heroines having few if any abortions could be taken as a pro-life position by the comic industry, and I pointed out that killing your unborn child wasn’t necessary to be pro-choice, so it was not an indicator of either a pro-life or pro-choice position.
If you are now changing the topic and asking me if I want 15% of super heroines to kill their children, the answer is…maybe. I almost said no, but then I realized that it would be really interesting if a character killed their kid and then the supporting characters actually had a conversation about whether or not that was right. If you could have the ramifications of an abortion play out in different titles with different perspectives kind of in the same way Diana killing Max Lord or the Civil War event was explored, then I actually think that would be extremely interesting assuming both sides were portrayed by writers who understood and agreed with both perspectives and would represent them well. However, seeing as abortion would be considered murder by me and many other people, this would tarnish the character to a huge segment of the population perhaps similar to how Miss Marvel’s blood lust to kill a potential Inhuman threat in Civil War II tarnished her brand in the eyes of some comic fans, so I don’t know if the trade off would be worth it.
“:And for 75% of the country being “Christian”. A vast swath of them certainly don’t go to religious services weekly? So your entire “lapsed Catholic” argument applies to “lapsed Christians” too, arguably if not more so, statistically speaking.”
I’m going by the number of people who identify as Christian. 75% of U.S. citizens identify as Christians. Half of lapsed Catholics still identify as religious Christians which is why I said they only half counted.
“Not to mention a lack of in depth knowledge of their own, as they allege, sacred texts. Or as I call them mythology.”
I’m not really sure what your point is. Let’s say for the sake of argument that all Christian beliefs are wrong and that not a single Christian even understands their own beliefs. Does this somehow mean Christians shouldn’t be represented in comics? I’m Christian and think all other beliefs are wrong, but I don’t object to seeing many other religious perspectives in comics. I enjoy it.
Nonsense! When has discussing religion on the internet ever gone wrong? It’s always smooth sailing.
Seriously though, I’m trying my best to be nice and hope I’m succeeding.
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I think Hans Solo is a viking
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Why does a discussion of alleged Christian under-representation has to come at the expense of LGBTQ representation? Let’s not forget that queer people have existed just as long as Christian people, and actually much longer. Yet representation in media has been virtually non-existent for the majority of the last two millennia. It’s only fairly recently that we’ve had openly LGBTQ characters appear in media. Before, if there was any representation, it would be all subtext and innuendo. So what that means is we have lots of catching up to do! Especially during Pride Month and the 50th anniversary of Stonewall.
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I don’t think anybody has said that Christian representation needs to come at the expense of LGBT representation. If you are responding to my comments, I was just pointing out that DC has made a conscious effort to give LGBT superhero representation by creating and highlighting LGBT characters in an effort to reflect the diversity of real life, and I appreciate that, but DC doesn’t seem to be interested in doing the same for Christianity even though they’ve put the Muslim faith of characters like Simon Baz front and center. I think there are plenty of room in comics for characters of all demographics and that if DC truly aspires to diversity, it should address this imbalance. There’s no that more Christian representation would have any effect on LGBT representation.
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There are many threads on this forum discussing the perceived under representation of many groups of people including different ethnicities, sexual orientations, and gender identities. I don’t see why this thread should be treated any differently.
I myself find this topic to be very interesting and would like it to continue unabated. So please don’t give the mods an excuse to shut it down. Just because I don’t agree with some of the other members in this thread does not mean I can’t, shouldn’t, or do not want to listen to their ideas.
I would like to also point out that you do not have to be a believer in any of these religions or religion at all to find their analysis compelling.
Now regarding to topic at hand. I always found Daredevil’s religious motivations and struggles fascinating and wondered why I didn’t see more characters like this examined.
Because of the thread my interest has been rekindled I plan on reading more Daredevil and exploring other characters mentioned in this thread.
Blue Devil is apparently a devout Catholic. I already had some familiarity with this character from cameo appearances in television shows. Because of my newfound interest in the magical side of the DC universe through reading Justice League Dark I thought I’d read some of his stories eventually but I now will try to make a much more concerted effort.
It’s a shame that Swamp Thing was cancelled as this could have been very interesting development in his character and I would have loved to see his interactions with the other members of Justice League Dark.
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