🔍 BEHIND THE MASK 🔎: Superman Edition

[Vroom]

@Kitty, that’s very insightful and well written. You’ve got a solid handle on dem things called words =)

[LadyWonder]

I love that, @Kitty: “a personification of what most refer to as a moral compass”.
And I agree! Whether villain, hero, or anywhere in between, what exactly do you measure yourself against, within the superhero/villain context?
Or is it necessary to even have a baseline?

The idea brings to mind the question, “How can good exist without evil?” If I try to imagine for a second a world where good does not exist, does evil really cease to exist as well…? Or is it merely the contrast between good and evil that is no longer? Or the “label/distinction” that dissipates?

If killing someone is considered evil, what is it considered to be, in a world where good does not exist - and thus evil is also nonexistent? The nature of the act is still what we call “evil”, right? Is this act “less” evil, in a world where good does not exist? Is it “more” evil, in a world where good once existed but now no longer?

Are villains less villainous, in a world where Superman never existed? Do they become more villainous in a world that has lost Superman?

[Reaganfan78]

When you watch Superman Returns, Lois writes ‘Why the world doesn’t need Superman’ I don’t think she ever given herself time to think about it. So I think DC would’ve been different if Superman never had existed, Would George Reeves play Batman in the 50s? Would any Superheroes film exist today? Superman had played a huge role for both DC and Marvel!
As for Superman staying dead, it would not be the same, DC needs Superman and they know it! I’m thankful that he came back to life.
So yes Lois Lane, The world need Superman like Disney needs Mickey Mouse.

[LadyWonder]

Reaganfan78
I wish there was a way we could just “check the timeline” like Rip does in DC Legends of Tomorrow.

Let’s see if Reeves plays Batman instead… Lol

Or really, let’s see if the idea of superheroes even exists at all, and if so, what place does it have in society? Who was the first superhero, if not Superman?

I would like to think it would be Batman, but I almost feel like Batman was created to be a high contrast superhero to Superman.

… So would Batman even exist??? Lol

[DanTheManOne1]

1.) Obviously there is no way DC Universe would have ever been the same if Superman had been created. He was the original DC Super Hero… hell the original Super Hero. Who knows is Super Heroes would have ever existed if Superman had not been created, much less the DC Universe. If they had they might be unrecognizable both in name and how they are portrayed without Superman starting everything.

But if we were to suppose that somehow those who came after him (Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Hourman, Wildcat, Sandman, etc.) had somehow gone on to be created in a world where Superman had never been created then it would be much different. Superman is a unique hero, representing an idealized role of what we all wish we could be. I can’t think of anyone that would have evolved into that in a world where Superman had never existed. The closest would be Wonder Woman but given the attitude towards women at the time doubtful she ever would have evolved into “THE” Superhero or the top teir role model to everyone after her.

Honestly if we were to assume that there was a world where Superman had never been created but every other Superhero we know had gone on to be, then what may have happened in this (unlikely and arguably implausable) world, is Captain Marvel would have continued to reign supreme and DC with no lawsuit to shut him down could have ended up being the one to go out of business and we would all now be chatting about Bulletman on Fawcette UNiverse streaming.

Now of course, if Superman had not existed then Captain Marvel 99.999% never would have been created in the first place. Which goes back to Superheroes as we know it would not be the same if ever created at all. But if we go with the anything can happen theory that every superhero but Superman somehow went on to be created, I think that basically someone else would have dethroned DC… or Marvel would just rule over all.

2.) What would the DC Universe be like if Superman had been the one Superhero to be dead right up to this day… that is a tough one. I assume if that was the plan one of the Reign of the Supermen heroes Superboy, Eradicator or Steel would have taken on the name Superman and would be the one starring in Action Comics. Not sure who would guess Superboy would have kept calling himself Superman and aged into an adult by now. Although I can’t see who if anyone would fill the true role Superman had. Of the person we all want to be, we identify with Batman more but deep down I think everyone aspires to be more like Superman. Who can we say that about… well maybe The Flash but aside from that cant’ think of one. And keep in mind the Flash was Wally West until fairly recently and while I love Wally he is not the same moral center Barry was… so can’t even imagine who would have filled that role after Superman died. Truth is the DC Universe might be a much more jaded place then it was without the other heroes to aspire to and look up to him.

Will say one thing that would change, which would be true if any hero had truly stayed dead forever… and why I have never been able to be 100% on board with the fact they brought Barry back. Is if Superman… SUPERMAN of all people had stayed dead, the true meaning of the risks heroes take and what they put on the line would be there in a way that it just isn’t in a DCU where the only heroes who ever stay dead are ones that no one cared about to begin with… and even they are not ruled out of one day coming back. With the right writer and the right idea even Razorblade could come back. It was not the same when Barry died… hence why I kind of regret they brought him back, and if Superman had been the one to do it it would have been even more real. No more “they will come back it is temporary” if Superman stayed dead then anyone is fair game to permanently leave.

3.) Superman’s death resonated in part because a lot of non-comic book fans all over the world didn’t realize what 90-99% of us comic fans knew or all but knew… that he was coming back. So it seemed like a true loos to a loss.

But the reason was also as others have said, Superman was ingrained in pop culture, people who never even opened a comic in their life have had a passing relationship with the movies or George Reeves TV show back then. Superman had been a household name and public icon for as long as most of us could remember… or had even been alive. The thought they killed him off was HUGE even to people who knew he was coming back (although if most knew it was only going to be a few months it might have been less so. But even then think it would have resonated.)

[LadyWonder]

@TurokSonOfStone1950
It’s really interesting that you say Doomsday was not worthy of killing Superman, bc I mean, duh. Who is?
But since we’re all asking questions, I couldn’t help but stop and actually ask myself, “IF anyone were an adversary actually worthy of killing Superman, who would they be? What would they be?”

I’m not sure if I think someone much like Superman would be more worthy to kill him or someone very different.
(Though, of course it would greatly depend on what “worthy” is being defined as.)

But considering for a moment the fact that I feel “no one” is worthy of killing Superman, I think if there were a worthy individual to exist who would be… Doomsday would be quite the contender.

I tend to think in a poetic sense and thrive on notes of irony, so bear with me.

So. Superman is pro-life. Take no life. Life is precious. Etc.
Both Doomsday and Superman are extremely powerful and from Krypton.

While Superman was sent to a loving family on Earth, Doomsday spent the span of his “life” on Krypton.
A test subject borne of genetic-engineering, Doomsday died over and over, as he was continuously placed in harsh environments to see if he could survive.
Each time he was re-engineered, his previous deaths were imprinted in his new dna.

Quite understandably, he eventually developed an intense “hate” for life and love for destruction.

Neither Superman or Doomsday are human.
They are similar in their similarities and ironically the things that are most distinctive about them respectively are stark opposites.

Even though Doomsday was created on Krypton, it was Kryptonians who subjected him to his tragic cycle of deaths.

At least Doomsday isn’t just some run-of-the-mill villain. His history is quite interesting, with a number of parallels to Superman’s.
Correct me if I’m wrong… Doomsday didn’t hunt Superman down.
It was almost as if he was drawn to Metropolis and stumbled upon Superman - who just so happened to be of the race the performed all of fatal experiments on him.

To me, they seem to be the perfect contenders. I just can’t figure out how to quite express what it is I see, when I look at the two paired against one another.

So… Doomsday: Worthy contender for the slaying of Superman? Maybe not, but also maybe!

(sorry for any typos or broken ideas - I stressed too long over this post and need to post it before I fall asleep. lol)

[LadyWonder]

@Dan
I have many things I would like to say, but I have already put up my laptop.
So I guess I will wait until tomorrow so I can reply item by item. Lol

[Vroom]

anxiously awaits LW’s next post

Can she write or what, folks? =)

[DCRANDALL]

Without Superman, I think everything we see with the comic book genre would mostly be different. Im not even sure if comic book films would be as popular or successful. It would definitely be a huge butterfly effect.

[TurokSonOfStone1950]

@LadyWonder

A video here, Secret Origins: The Story of DC Comics describes the reasons for the Death of Superman.

In the comics, Superman had already revealed his secret identity to Lois. There were plans for marriage, as a year long event.

Meanwhile the TV series, Lois and Clark, was also considering that idea.

DC Management decided the wedding should be delayed and occur simultaneously on TV and comics.

At the meeting of the writers for all four Superman titles, plans had to change quickly and the Death of Superman became the substitute event.

This event had to go on for several months, so a physical threat was selected, to maximize action.

In Greek Tragedy, when heroes died, it was due to a flaw in the hero.

Lex Luthor versus Superman was always portrayed as Smart vs Muscle.

The most compelling way to kill Superman, for me, was to create a plan against him that was so devious, he was caught by surprise, after him believing such an event impossible.

That could not be done in a months long event. It was an issue at most.

Therefore Superman had to be beaten to a pulp.

That is not the way I wanted him to go, if he had to go.

I wanted him to be outsmarted.

Therefore I made the statement that Doomsday was unworthy because that is not the way I wanted him to go, by being beaten until death.

I thoroughly understand why it was done the way it was done.

[JLWWSM]

My opinions below:

Would the DC Universe be the same if Superman had never been created?

• The DCU would not be the same without Supes. He is the moral compass for the entire DC Universe. And his powers are phenomenal.

What would the DC Universe be like today if he had stayed slain?

• Others would’ve stepped up, but no one can really take his place. They would always be in Superman’s shadow or be compared to him.

Why did the death of a fictional character create such a tragic sense of loss worldwide?

• Because “the world needs Superman” He was our solution for asteroid threats! But seriously, he represents hope. Killing “hope” creates a profound sense of loss.

Is the name Doomsday being used as a motif for what was meant to follow the death of one the greatest superheroes the DCU has ever known?

• I don’t think so, but anything’s possible. I wonder how the authors of the Death (and return) of Superman would answer that question.

[LadyWonder]

Oh, Vroom…!
*blushes profusely *

[KittyKrawler1]

@LW “is it necessary to even have a baseline?”
Whether or not it’s necessary is an entirely different conversation!
In the reality that both we and our super pals live in, the law of polarity is fact. It states that everything that exists has an equal and exact opposite.

Essentially, for something to even exist, its exact opposite has to exist as well.

So, whether or not a baseline is “necessary”, it will exist by default. Because somewhere between pure goodness and pure evil is a baseline for both.

–

If Superman never existed, perhaps other superheroes would have come, perhaps not. But what would be, regardless, is the “idea” that spurred the creation of Superman.
I feel like the idea that spurred Superman’s creation was based somewhere amid thoughts on “good and evil, the need to conquer evil, and the idea of having a dedicated protector against it all”.

To think that it took something very particular and rare to come to the conclusion that the world could use a “super man” is quite silly, really.

Honestly, I feel like, if Superman had never existed, somebody like “The Superman” would’ve been created in his place. lol

In my opinion, I feel like there isn’t a world anywhere that exists, in which a Superman does not.

[KittyKrawler1]

@deku_
Very true! And all of this is partially why I feel like the idea of Superman “not” existing is almost impossible, really.
It’s almost like saying that “hope” does not exist.

And personally, I believe that no matter how hard you try to snuff out hope, it will always spring eternal.
^ ^

[Vroom]

continues to be impressed with Kitty’s writing. Anxiously awaits her sure to be bestsellers

[KittyKrawler1]

Vroom, are you sure you’re not just here to cheer on the ladies?
I enjoyed the two cents you tossed in earlier on. Hoping to see more from you as well! ^ ^

[greymat_ter]

@KittyKrawler Perfectly said!! And you’re right, I don’t even think hope would be a thing if not for Sups

[LadyWonder]

@deku_
That would be a pretty gray world…

A gray world without hope.
A gray world without Superman.

[LadyWonder]

Lol @ kitty
I’ve been waiting as well.

[Vroom]

@Kitty, I’m here 1. as an ardent Superman fan and B. You and LW said things that are worth highlighting.

S’all =)