šŸ” BEHIND THE MASK šŸ”Ž Crazy Jane Edition

You canā€™t say whether Janeā€™s state is realistic or not because, in the real world, weā€™ve never been able to definitely prove whether or not this sort of multiple personality syndrome actually exists. The cases which produced this idea are, at this time, most commonly supposed by psychologists to have been the result of the person acting.

There have been other mental health disorders which were not recognized as real in the past, being dismissed as a person acting for attention, but which are recognized now as valid disorders. On the other hand, there are other disorders which were considered real in the past and are now dismissed as the product of cultural bigotry. And there are even disorders today which are believed to be valid in one culture, and seen as nonsense in another culture.

Psychology can be a frustrating field and suffers poor esteem among the sciences due to its limitations. At this point, interpreting anything that a person is suffering without any definite objective physical proof of whatā€™s happening to the brain ends up being a matter of opinion rather than actual science.

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Wow as the science which is real as far as I have seen from my classes those ā€œdisordersā€ just either have evolved with facts or they where ā€˜patriarchal Donkey ****ā€™ because people in power it was another way to flex that power. And implying someone to ā€˜fake itā€™ is it the person ā€˜fakingā€™, possibly trying so hard to prove it it may seem fake, but some people actually struggle with this **** jerk. :kissing_heart::upside_down_face::black_heart::heart::black_heart::heart:

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@redarrowslinger I am thoroughly intrigued by your insight into the characters.
It never even occurred to me that Robotman being a man that is a robot could be the reason why Jane feels so comfortable with him or why particular alters feel comfortable enough to come out.

It seems obvious now, but while I did notice that many of her alters are sexually-charged or a little on the ā€œraunchyā€ side, it did not occur to me to consider the general idea of why some alters come out and some donā€™t or why the dominant personality felt comfortable.

Its almost like Jane is the guardian or protector ā€œgoing firstā€ to make sure itā€™s okay for certain others to come out.

Though, at the end of the day, the person hiding down there in the underground is still Kay Challis, the young girl who was sexually traumatized by her father - in pieces, but there nonetheless.

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Does anyone have a link to our E3 thread?..it is no longer trending and I lost it. I liked that one as well. :ā€™(

Nevermind. I found it.

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@redarrowslinger.99141
Very well-said!
I agree - They all do seem to be on a journey to self-discovery. While some (i.e. Robotman) may be more aware of it than others (i.e. Jane), they all definitely seem to be forging their way through the hindrances that have held them back for so long.
They may all be at different points, but it has been very exciting to bear witness to their respective journies!

I particularly enjoyed your perspective on Negative Manā€™s journey made manifest. Fab explanation for his current ā€œsituationā€.

And to answer your question, I do feel that to an extent Jane could be considered the most authentic - in that she does not fight who she has become.
And while she could have very well had a completely different response to her past trauma and current state, she still has not confronted the ā€œreasonā€ she is in her current state.

Whether it be in the hopes that her fractured state be mended or to simply come to terms with what happened and who it has caused her to be, the confrontation with her past still needs to happen before she can truly be considered ā€œauthenticā€, in regards to identity. Imo.

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@redarrowslinger :exploding_head::exploding_head::exploding_head: re: your point on Robotman and Jane. I will have thoughts, but for nowā€¦:exploding_head::exploding_head::exploding_head:

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@KittyKrawler This is long and Iā€™m not sure it arrives. But It is an attempt to carry our conversation forward. I look forward to whatever thoughts this pulls out of you and anyone else who wishes to join.

You ask should the Crazy Jane ā€œmoving forwardā€ be a lot less crazy. In Janeā€™s circumstance, I would first assume that the word crazy refers to her DID, the fact that she has many different personalities. However, some of those personalities have demonstrated themselves to be anti-social in nature, which some people might also consider crazy. Additionally, some of her personalities have demonstrated themselves to be so far out of any earthly norm ā€” but maybe not out of any DC universe norm ā€” that those alone might earn her the title of crazy. In other words, she is many different forms of crazy.

As we move forward in this discussion, I will assume that Janeā€™s DID operates in the manner that it is presented to us on the show, which stripped of its superhuman dressings is still not necessarily an accurate representation of DID as the current psychological profession recognizes it in the DSM. (There is validity to @laudsavidā€™s argument regarding the criticism of DID as a diagnosis; however, I disagree with his conclusion and seeming dismissal of psychology as a whole, nor do I think any well-meaning scientist in this modern age of neuroscience would dismiss psychology and its findings as merely a matter of opinion. For one, the very fact that a person expresses suffering is a physical phenomenon which can be observed and triangulated with various other observable phenomena, but that is an entirely different discussion.)

My understanding is that dissociative symptoms often are associated with other issues, like post traumatic stress disorder. And the psychological profession tends to treat the other issues. Often when those issues have been dealt with the dissociative symptoms subside. DID as a full blown disorder carries a somewhat different and challenging history to unpack as @laudsavid has pointed out. So, letā€™s assume that Jane moves forward having relieved the issues associated with her trauma through various therapies and whatever other treatments fit her particular needs. There is a chance that the DID would subside and she would lose all of personalities as well as her powers. Thereā€™s also a chance that wouldnā€™t happen. Who would she be then?

I prefer to look at this from the Jane as a metaphor for normal human experience perspective. If we deal with traumas in our own life, do all of the selves that we have been, wish to be, and want to be subside. No. We still have our memories. We will have desires. And visions for who we could be. But what is different? Perhaps, it is that we have accepted all of those things. But, more importantly, we can recognize them when they arise in our minds. In seeing them arise, we can make a decision about how to act in the face of it. We can learn that emotions are a choice. We can learn that our past doesnā€™t control us. Nor does our future. Or even our present. We could literally do nothing. The only thing we canā€™t control is the fact that these things arise. Thoughts arise. And identities, or ways of being in the world, begin as thoughts. (The ones that donā€™t, we can attribute to other biology and arenā€™t really relevant to this line of inquiry.)

I think that Jane has clearly accepted her condition. She has accepted that all these personalities arise. But Jane could become something more powerful than the one personality she was before her trauma, and more powerful than she is as a set of fractured personalities who barely communicate with one another and demonstrate no real cooperation with each other, other than to stay out of each otherā€™s way. She could become an integration of all.

Like we can see all of the selves we could be, have been, want to be, fear we are etc. arise in our minds, Jane can see her personalities arise, and with an integrated personality, she could access them or not. As I write this, Iā€™m not entirely convinced that Jane is not already here, except for what she has said about them doing their own thing. Her personalities have certainly arisen in the right circumstances for their ability, and have for the most part, subsided before any significant harm or dysfunction happened. (In the comics, we at some point go into Janeā€™s Underground and the personalities refer to, I believe, the body as their shared concern, which you could view as the mechanism by which an integration like I am attempting to describe is realized.)

Considering the fact that Jane has this intricate map of her personalities, the Underground, we could imagine that she has a greater self-knowledge than any of the characters or than many of us do. Her personalities have certainly provided the most forward momentum for the story of the show. The character serves a very valuable story function; instead of cut to the chase, we just cut to one of Janeā€™s amazing powers, which solves the narrative Gordian knot we find ourselves in. There is a certain amount of self-actualization that comes from controlling your own narrative, which Jane is doing so often.

We certainly know that Jane has not dealt with her trauma. But how far away from integration is she? The show is inconsistent in the evidence on that so far, which leads me to believe that she has the potential for integration, but would need to resolve her trauma.

If she did so, would she still be crazy? If Silver Tongue is still threatening to slice peopleā€™s throats with a katana made out of expletives, then, yeah, Iā€™d say she is pretty crazy. But itā€™s a kind of crazy Iā€™d like to keep watching.

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I believe crazy Jane is haunted by big daddy. She feels safe with Robotman b/c he understands her plight. He visited her underground & viewed all her personalities. She relates with his struggle to feel normal. Their both trapped in a body they canā€™t break free from. Robotmam is over protective of her & I believe she appreciates it. Her original ā€œformā€ was destroyed by big daddy. Robotman is the only one who truly knows that & attempts to help her, as she does the same with him. Trying to help him with the loss of his daughter amongst other things.

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Dj!!!
Awesome to see you around the threads again, man!
Weā€™ve been missing you!

@Bozea, I do not have enough time in a shift to address everything I want to address in that post.
Many juicy thoughts, all so well-expressed!
The bit that stood out most to me was this:
ā€œ(In the comics, we at some point go into Janeā€™s Underground and the personalities refer to, I believe, the body as their shared concern, which you could view as the mechanism by which an integration like I am attempting to describe is realized.)ā€

Then you go on to say exactly where I was arriving:

ā€œConsidering the fact that Jane has this intricate map of her personalities, the Underground, we could imagine that she has a greater self-knowledge than any of the characters or than many of us do.ā€

I agree! I would definitely be one to argue that Jane seems. by certain measures, to be the most self-aware and ā€œintegratedā€ member of the Doom Patrol.

And this idea is even more solidified in my mind when you look at her condition from the inside out. You also expressed this idea when you referred to the ā€œUndergroundā€ as being Janeā€™s integration manifested.

ā€“

To refer back to my original question, ā€œShould the Crazy Jane ā€œmoving forwardā€ be a lot less crazy?ā€

It would depend on what is being considered crazy.

Since the context of the conversation is ā€œidentityā€, if we put crazy in terms of identity, one might still feel inclined to say Jane is the craziest - considering her many, many selves.

However, I might argue that Jane is the most ā€œsaneā€ one considering how in touch and self-aware she is, compared to the rest of the team.

Larry LITERALLY fights whatā€™s inside of him.
Rita falls a part whenever she is faced with the truth about herself.
While he is making considerable progress and notable speeds, Robotman is still coming to terms with his completely new existence in life.
There are even hints that Vic doesnā€™t know the truth about the most pivotal moment in his own life.

In many ways, Jane is all over the place.
But if you make DID a baselne, rather than a disorder or anomaly, if for a second we imagine everyone on the team has DID, she would be the one handling it the best.

Identity-wise, if none of the team had any of their ā€œconditionsā€, Jane would be that one that you might consider somewhat of a wild child but you respect because she is who she is who she is.

In the context of identity, the way I see it, Jane wins.
Ironically. :smile:

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Sorry if my ideas seem largely unfinished. There were so many things I wanted to say and just did not have the time. :pensive:

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SPOILERS
I found it interesting how the Robotman and Jane as a daughter thing was shown by Cult Momā€¦it was also interesting how they talked about Kayā€¦the way it seemed to me first she was seeing herself as fractured one moment and the next who she really was was the scared little girl hiding from her traumaā€¦ according to Cult Mom which got pretty bad when it caused the fight between Hammered and Robotman how Penny let Robotman get taken and just followed them like following an abuser at the expense of someone you care about. How Hammeredā€™s anger pulled a Starlord and screwed up the plan because her anger got the better of her like she scolded Robotman for just seconds before.

Also when Robotman could have redeemed himself with Hammerhead but it was still Penny out when I checked like no! No! No
Rita: We get the point!

bump!

My thread not the DC Universe one.