But has there ever been a comic where the Joker, at least from a visual standpoint is rough the same age, if not slightly older than Batman?
I certainly don’t recall that ever being the case.
And given that we still, to this day, do not have a definitive origin for the Joker, of course his age is never clearly defined. However, in Batman 89 for example, Joker must be substantially older than Batman if he was the shooter in Bruce’s parents murder.
So we have seen at least one instance where the Joker, by pure deduction, is substantially older than Bruce.
The Joker looks pretty old in the Golden Age. He started looking younger in the 1960s.
I don’t think age is problematic with Joker and Harley because everything else about the relationship is just so much worse. It’s not really all that noticeable compared to everything else that’s going on there.
And honestly, for me, with Babs and Bruce, I think the number one thing that throws me off is that she’s Batgirl. The girl part just makes her sound so much younger, you know? And the fact that she dated Dick, who’s practically Bruce’s son, just complicates things even further. That’s not really an age thing, but more of a familial thing.
Eh, I guess at least we all agree that Vicki Vale doesn’t even deserve to get mentioned as a serious candidate.
@TornadoSoup
Is Hawkgirl to young? Elastigirl?
As Cat Grant famously said in Supergirl season 1, “what’s wrong with being a girl. I’m a girl. Does that make me less of a woman? I think not.”
Sorry I’m chiming in late.
Because they are fictional characters, I think it all depends on how it’s written in Lego Batman arguably Batgirl was more mature than Bruce.that being said I never saw any tension between the two characters. He’s a mentor, friend of her father’s, and the father figure to someone she’s had a long-standing relationship with. I didn’t think it worked at all in The Killing Joke movie, Batman was written as someone probably close to 40 and she seemed like she was somewhere between 18 and 20. Age can be just a number, but she was not at all emotionally mature. I personally enjoy it a lot better if I just skip the beginning portion entirely, and get to the actual story. I also don’t think anyting Joker does should be used to back a moral argument. If that were the case shooting someone in the spine and taking naked pictures of them just counts as foreplay.
But anyway back to the subject at hand. I don’t think Batgirl should be in the running.I think he should be with Wonder Woman, but it just never happened. I think he’ll wind up with Catwoman and ultimately be happy. And Talia is toxic as hell, but the crazy ones are good in bed.
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@Desade, I guess you’re right. Character wise, I do think of Batgirl as a woman, and I don’t think the girl part of her name takes away from that. Maybe it’s the family thing that throws me off then? I don’t know, something just seems wrong with pairing them together to me. I just don’t think they mesh. But hey, that’s just me.
Thanks for pushing my thought process, Desade. I like finding new ways to look at things like this.
@TornadoSoup
Glad I could provide an alternative perspective.
I think, especially in recent years, there has grown the concept of “the bat family” as a real family structure with Batman as the patriarch.
I must confess to the perspective of not buying into this. I can see the “father figure” element when it comes to the Robins. However, Batgirl (especially the Babs iteration), Batwing, & Batwoman I just don’t buy it. All three have reasonably healthy relationships with their own fathers. I can certainly see Bats as a mentor and tactician trainer, but, I don’t get that “father” vibe. Also, I certainly see Babs and Batwoman as very independent and not looking for approval from Batman for what they do. There is respect, sure. However, I think they view themselves as equals from a personality and relationship standpoint. If Batman said to any of them "You shouldn’t do this, I think Babs, Batwing & Batwoman would all tell him to pound sand.
So, not getting that “family” vibe is probably one of the reasons I don’t take issue.
I still think Talia is Bat’s true bae, but if Babs and Bruce wanna bang, that’s up to two consenting adults. I’m certainly not going to judge them for it.
I think I mischaracterized what I meant by my “patriarch” comment. I just meant that Batman is the main authority figure and mentor to the others, so Bruce/Babs gives me more of a teacher/student vibe than father/daughter.
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1. While I'm not really a fan of Bruce/Babs, I think it's worth noting that Babs was originally introduced as a person in her mid-twenties (she was elected to Congress, after all). She was kind of positioned between Batman and Robin in age, seemingly so that it would be clear that she wasn't there just to be someone's love interest (indeed, she had her own romantic interest, Jason Bard). So she was hardly jailbait. She just gets aged down sometimes by people who want to ship her with Dick.
2. Batman's world was heavily inspired by the Pulp/Noir traditions, so his classic female characters tended to be femme fatale-types. If you're at all familiar with Film Noir, you'll know that it never works out with femme fatales, and this fact tends to inform most of Batman's romantic history.
Honestly, I’m not that big a fan of pairing Batman with Catwoman or Talia, even if they are his two most “traditional” romantic interests:
-I, personally, don’t see Catwoman as a Robin Hood figure. I see her as a thief who’s mostly motivated by thrillseeking. I see most of her attraction to Batman as coming from the fact that having him around to chase her makes it more exciting, and I don’t really see much more to it than that. All villains should reflect some aspect of the hero in some way, and, in Catwoman’s case, I think she’s the personification of the seductive power of darkness, luring him away from his crusade to behave selfishly. She’s a solid Chaotic Neutral anti-heroine, if I can borrow from alignment terms from D&D.
-I find Talia to be kind of creepy, and that was before Grant Morrison made her a rapist. I mean, she was allegedly deeply in love with him after meeting him once?
She had a kind of creepy stalker vibe to her. I mean, how much of it was genuine attraction, and how much was her Father’s desire for a worthy male heir? IF you wanted to give her a redemption arc, I feel like the best way to do that would be to have her go her own way, without her Father or her “Beloved,” and build her own life, on her own terms. Then there’s Damian, whom I loathe utterly.
I liked the Batman/Wonder Woman thing from Justice League, I felt like they were different and similar in the right ways for it be interesting and to work as a relationship. I also kind of like the idea of Batman and Zatanna as a couple, thanks to Paul Dini. Their dynamic was interesting, and I feel like their relationship had a lot of narrative potential. Unfortunately, they're not his "iconic" romantic interests, so we keep getting train wrecks (like the recent wedding, which we all should have known wasn't going to actually happen, no matter how uninspired the excuse) that don't require Batman to grow or change as a person.
I gotta say catwoman. She’s my favorite and the wedding series was sooooo good. I guess this really is spoilers now that I think about it.
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Actually Batman and Zatanna are probably the best pairing. While both are heroes, they are also polar opposites. They quite literally do their detection and crime fighting on literally two different planes.
So I could certainly be happy shipping B&Z.
Also Batman & Ms. Martian. Technically she’s got to be as old as Bats if not older. She still needs some emotional development, and I don’t think they would be long term, but, a 12 month fling between the two of them could be really interesting. Especially as the JL & YJ members keep sticking their noses into their business, with unsolicited commentary and/or complaints. And it could certainly drive a wedge between Batman & Martian Manhunter, Which I think would make for an interesting dynamic, especially given how clinical they can both be on missions and the like.
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Of the three choices, I’d have to say Catwoman. Talia is emotionally manipulative and sometimes abusive, not to mention the other implied aspects of their relationship. As for Batwoman, regardless of what her canon age was in different iterations, Batman was still a mentor to her in a position of power. Personally, it makes it a little hard for me to root for them as a couple.
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Bruce and Zatanna (Hi, by the way) is an underrated one that’s never really been explored as an official pairing, but I’ve enjoyed the teases and dynamic. Then again, that stuff is mostly coming from Paul Dini, and he could write a phone book and I’d enjoy it. For comic books, the test of whether an idea works is often whether it can still be enjoyable even under an average writer’s pen (bad writers are a wildcard since you never know what they’ll screw up).
Plus, there is a bit of the same issue as Bruce/Diana where they live and work in such different circles that it’s narratively difficult to regularly put them in the same place, but it’s alleviated a little since Zatanna doesn’t have to support a solo title most of the time.
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The DCAU Babs/Bruce pairing always disgusted me. I’m glad the mainstream comics haven’t gone that route. Obviously, I like Dick/Babs, but even if that pairing were out of the picture, I’m still not a fan of the power and personality dynamics between Bruce and Barbara in regards to romantic potential. Batman will always be Batman - he’s one of DC’s biggest characters; he has prominence over almost every (arguably every) other DC character. I’d like Babs to be on more even footing in a hero/hero romance. Bruce was her mentor and has more experience; that dynamic won’t change without major reworks - and people will still remember. Personality-wise both are control freaks, which can be amusing to watch/read scattered throughout team dynamics, but (IMO) can get old really fast in relationships. One of the reasons I like Dick/Babs so much is the balance they have - both are heroes who started under the tutelage of the Bat and grew into new roles, both have led/lead teams, both have complimentary skills but excel in different areas, both want peace, both want to help, etc, while also strengthening and supporting each other (go friendship power!). I guess I just don’t see Bruce and Babs as balanced or as strengthening each other in terms of a relationship.
Whoo, all that said, off of the list provided, I’d have to go with Catwoman.
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It’s Catwoman.
Frankly I refuse to even consider Bruce and Barbara as a possibility. The very thought of it infuriates me.
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