Batman Is A Bad Person

@Rip_Rubbler If Batman were to fund those charitable causes, the need for Batman would disapear. That’s the whole point I’m trying to make. Even many of the major criminal people are results of either Batman or the lack of available treatments/options for the mentally ill. I am saying that Batman should have never existed in the first place. I don’t think Bruce would end up corrupt like Harvey cause they’re different individuals with different moral strengths. But if Bruce were able to become corrupt that easily, then I don’t want him behind the cowl either.

@TheTerrificToyman I don’t think I ever said murder is okay if your heart is in the right place. I think that’s a really dishonest and bad faith take from my argument. What I did say however is that often people who commit crimes do so as a result of their desperation and lack of support. Not because they’re evil. I’m not saying this excuses any violence or crimes they commit, I’m saying there are better ways to solve those issues and prevent them from committing those crimes. I’m happy to dm you some research and theory on this topic in real life if you’d like.

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Fair enough- so how should Batman handle a group of men in Joker face paint walking the streets of Gotham fully armed with weapons…?

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Well, if Bruce properly funded welfare programs, education, healthcare programs, and infrastructure; this would all allow for low income people to have jobs and financial security. This would prevent them from committing crimes and joining gangs of the nature you describe as they would no longer be desperate for income. They would have more of a choice of who they would seek money from. They wouldn’t need to turn to crime anymore. Do you believe that the people in those gangs are just evil for the sake of being evil? I mean, sure maybe a few, but that’s a very pessimistic look at people that isn’t supported by research, science, nor sociology in real life.

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What I mean by that is Bruce Wayne DOES support those causes and yet for some reason criminals STILL exist. Why they do is hard to determine, but it’s likely from an unreasonable mistrust of the Wayne Foundation. Batman is around so criminals NEED to trust the Wayne Foundation that Batman KNOWS is clean.

And I think it would be pretty easy for Bruce to become Harvey Dent IF he didn’t gain his willpower during his training to become Batman. You could argue he was immediately hardened by the death of his parents, but the death of his parents still gave him the desire to become Batman, so I’d argue an event such as the gal of Harvey Dent would INCREASE his chances of going looney from another traumatic experience. Or you could say since not everyone has an accident as specific as Harvey Dent’s, he’d just end up dying from an assassination attempt. Something that would be much more improbable if he had reflexes and smarts like Batman does.

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I believe when you walk around carrying weapons in broad daylight that can maim, injure, or kill people- I don’t care what your reason is. If you’ve made the choice to threaten or harm an innocent person, I could care less why. You could have made any other choice.

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I don’t mean to chime in, but many characters like the Joker and Mad Hatter don’t just get hired help, they force people to work for them whether it’s through intimidation or mind control.

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@Rip_Rubbler Thank you for adding that bit about people being forced into helping those criminals. That’s another reason why he should definitely not be handling the situation the way he does. Many of them are innocent victims. That said, I would love to read some material that details the way the Wayne Foundation works and how his charities help the city. I feel like they just kind of offhandedly mention the charities he does but never go into detail. I have a feeling the result of the continuation in crime is a result of factors from the charities not doing enough or being corrupt in some way. Those are things that can be addressed without the Bat.

@TheTerrificToyman You’re being reactionary. Instead of JUST taking down those people, you need to ALSO be asking “how do we prevent this from happening in the future.” There are ways to prevent people from committing crimes of this nature. Once again, happy to DM research on this if you’d like.

Also, to both of you, thank you for having this conversation. I’m enjoying having a discussion with both of you, and I hope you both feel the same. No negativity on either of you from me. :slight_smile:

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The feeing is mutual. I really enjoy discussing these kinds of topics. And I agree, it’s always implied or shown briefly that Bruce Wayne does a lot for charities, but we don’t get to see much of it first hand, I hope something like that gets made in the future. Also, it goes back to what I said about how Batman’s behavior depends on the incarnation, if you look at the episode of BTAS Mad as a Hatter (underrated episode by the way) he goes out of his way to be careful about how he tackles fighting. As for the Joker aspect of the argument, Batman doesn’t really have anyway to distinguish hired help from people being force to work for the Joker, so you’re technically right, there’s just not much he can do about that.

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Well, once again, he could do something about the Joker if he funded the proper causes and foundations, but we’re kind of going in circles there. I would just say to keep in mind that I’m not saying to change the way Bruce acts because that would make the stories boring. I’m just saying that we should label him a hero and that it would be nice to see other characters call him out on it more.

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I can agree there. Batman is an anti-hero, but he doesn’t kill like all other anti-heroes do, so most people brand him as a plain hero. Yet he’s somewhere in the middle.

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Classic Greek heroes were frequently selfish and morally wrong.

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Okay… that’s an appeal to history. I don’t view them as heroes either.

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It’s an accurate appeal to history.

Your definition is incorrect.

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Which proper causes and foundations do you think would do anything to stop the Joker…?

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There isn’t such thing as an “accurate” appeal to history. An appeal to history is a logical fallacy. People used to label the KKK as heroes, but I wouldn’t say they are. Definitions grow, change, and evolve. Hence why saying “they used to call those guys heroes,” isn’t a very good argument and has flawed logic.

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It’s not a fallacy in this case. You might as well be arguing that the Iliad isn’t an epic because your idea of an epic is informed by Michael Bay.

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@TheTerrificToyman Depends on the iteration of the Joker. If it’s a version that suffers from mental illness, then proper treatment from a good mental health center would do TONS! Arkham is an awful treatment center. If it’s financial and social issues (ie. the recent film) then that would be a variety of welfare programs. There are treatments for people like him.

@AlexanderKnox An appeal to tradition/history is by definition a logical fallacy. Appeal to tradition - Wikipedia There’s no version of it that isn’t. My definition of hero is not based on other media. It’s based on established morals I have from research and theory. Your example of Michael Bay and the illiad is precisely why I based my definition as such. Because basing it on other things like tradition and the majority is very flawed. Please explain to me why my definition of hero is incorrect in your eyes. Because just saying that they have been defined as such in the past is not a strong case. Once again, the KKK were once defined as heroes but we can both agree that is wrong. We are capable of defining a hero based on things other than media and the past.

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Your subjective ethics do NOT decide character types. These are literary classifications.

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What? All I’m asking is for you to explain why you, on a moral and ethical level, disagree with my description of Batman not being a hero or to address my various other points. Why do you disagree with the definition of hero I’ve provided outside of a logical fallacy of “that’s how they’ve been.” Just because something has been one way doesn’t mean that they can’t be better. Being selfish and morally wrong are not good things and that’s why I don’t think they should be aspects of someone labeled as a hero. Just because things have been a way in the past doesn’t mean we can’t strive for better things and definitions in the future. Why is my definition of the hero wrong? What definition do you feel is more appropriate? I’m so lost on why you refuse to do so as it would be a much more productive discussion.

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IRRELEVANT. Heroes are protagonists of a story (especially a myth, which is the model for superhero comics) who accomplish mighty deeds with their superhuman abilities. Despite technically being human, Batman has been consistently depicted since 1939 as having exceptional abilities that exceed those of “normal” humans. That’s what makes him a hero.

If you want to argue that Batman would be a person of little virtue if he were a real person, have at it.

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