Batfamily......Gone?

I enjoy the current situation with the Bat Family. I’d perhaps make them a little more intertwined. I like the idea of a dedicated Bat Family book.

I’d also say there should be a fifteen year ban on any stories where Batman realizes he needs or doesn’t need a family/partners. Super tired of that story line.

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I really like that the Bat Family has grow to be so big. It kind of contradicts the idea that Batman is a dark loner, and brings out Bruce’s fatherly side. And I’ve always said that I like all the Family more than I like the Batman.

But saying that… Let’s just get rid of Damian. He was cool when first introduced, but has turned into the least interesting and least rounded character in the fam.

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Look, I love me some Tim, but yeah, he’s basically more mini-Bruce than even Damian. And I’ll take any chance to erase Damian from existence. So, Bruce, Dick, Alfred, Ace, Batgirl. Superman. Extended family.

@DGWJTWDTW No he’s not. He does everything he can to not be like Bruce. And the one time he tried, right after his father’s death, he instead decides to confide in the Titans, whereas Bruce would’ve kept it bottled in as Tim tried to do.

I think when discussing how big or small the Bat Family should be, one must consider if these characters have a purpose, an arc, or a role to play in the life and mission of what was originally a street-level detective in a scary costume. Not just “are they a female counterpart” or are they “the rebel” or some other cliched non-trait. For certain characters, I’ll be omitting their reinventions (and not just because those reinventions sucked eggs).
(Okay, mostly because those reinventions sucked eggs.)

Alfred - He patches up the wounded, works on some of the machinery (computerized and otherwise) and helps with keeping identities secret. He’s a father figure for most everyone, helping keep them grounded when they spend so much time punching guys in clown masks or fighting hypnotized office workers. He has a purpose.

Nightwing - The original sidekick, old enough know better, still too young to care. He identifies with Bruce because he had the same tragedy and the same drive to see justice done. He’s like if Batman was more trusting–and had a clearer sense of humor. Experienced enough to teach his younger counterparts a thing or two, but with some things left to learn. He has purpose.

Barbara/Oracle/Batgirl - Someone who kind of “happened” into crime-fighting. There was a thrill-seeking element at first, but she grew to take it more seriously. She can wallop baddies physically, but she can also ruin them in other ways with her keen hacking abilities. She can fight on a different front, with her mind, while others are using their fists. Much like Grayson, she can be a mentor to the younger heroes, guiding them. She has purpose.

Tim Drake - A deductive prodigy; a capable fighter but his mind can be sharper than others. He didn’t join the fight because of an epic tragedy, but because Batman needed someone at his side to ground him, keep him from going too far. He probably could’ve kept Wayne’s secret forever, if the loss of Jason Todd didn’t drive him to the brink, but an inherent goodness drove him to become the third Robin. As someone that is doing good because it is good and not because of an epic tragedy, something altogether rare in comics, he has purpose.

Stephanie Brown - Personally affected by crime, she strove to personally ruin her father’s ambition (remember, I’m omitting the post-Flashpoint iterations). She felt she had more to offer, she could help more people despite her inexperience, and wanted the chance to prove it. But time and time again, she kept being told to quit, for years. However, she remained resolute; she met rejection with tenacity, in the face of someone whose pointy-eared silhouette makes criminals afraid, again without some blood-stained motivator. She has purpose.

Cassandra Cain (not Orphan, because obviously) - It’s one thing to crusade against crime because it caused a tragedy in your life. It’s something else when you know from firsthand experience. Uniquely aware of what it was like to take a life, Cass had an equally unique understanding of what Batman is striving for, all the while possessing the skills to defeat nearly anyone. Immense, powerful ferocity, kept in check by compassion and a desire for redemption. She has purpose (when written by someone competent and frikkin’ editors aren’t being stupid).

Damien Wayne - Yeah, this one’s kind of a jerk. However, they still keep Guy in the GL Corps, right? He wears his ego on his sleeve. And cape. And shirt. And pants. Abrasive, but being the son of Batman and raised by an immortal grampa to believe he’s all that and an entire factory of chips, he has a lot of growing up to do, even if he can match his predecessors in physical combat. He presents a blood connection to Bruce that was much scarcer pre52, a sign of the future generation that must temper his ego if he is truly to succeed the Dark Knight. He has purpose, if more tenuously than others. Call this one a grey area, maybe depending on the writer.

Duke Thomas - I don’t know or remember enough about him to say for sure. He met Bats when he first appeared in Gotham, made the connection he was Bruce Wayne, started his own Robin group–none of which is bad, per se, but I can’t say for certain whether or not it proves a role in being in “the family”. Note, he can work with Batman, be a valid character, and not be in “the family”. Kind of like Huntress, Catwoman, or depending on your perspective, Steph Brown.

Harper Row - A conglomeration of traits and skills other sidekicks had before her, wrapped up in one of the least likeable packages imaginable. I don’t care how badly Tynion wanted her to be the bat-messiah, she serves zero purpose. To anyone. Ever. If she were killed off, she wouldn’t even be as effective a cautionary tale as Jason Todd, because she never did anything noteworthy or important.

Batwoman - Again, I don’t know enough about this character to determine this. I actually liked that she, as indicated by Babs in Batman Eternal wasn’t "in the family, but then they made her Bruce’s cousin for some reason. I have no idea why; It didn’t seem to add much to either character. Personally, I feel like it kind of means more if Bats kind of seeks or gains a family outside bloodlines, but that’s me.

Red Hood - Batman’s greatest failure, the Robin he lost–then got back again, only angrier and with a pair of glocks and matching itchy trigger fingers. The Bat’s skills in the hands of an angry man who’s not above killing his foes and getting his hands dirtier than most. He serves a purpose–but, I feel, only as the disowned family member. Sure, he towed the line for a while, but decided to forsake his mentor’s ways and thus, exiled himself from the clan. It makes more sense if he’s at odds with his “siblings” than if they’re all buddy-buddy with someone that spits in the face of what they work for. “Look at me, I’m the cool older brother that’s not the oldest, and I break the rules, but it’s okay because of things and reasons! Wooo!”

Clayface - Ha! That’s a good one–wait, you were serious? Seriously serious? I mean, no way was his turn going to last. Heck, I’d wager it was only done for that big weepy dramatic “death” that was also never going to stick. I mean, no, obviously. Not Clayface. Heh heh. No.

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Personally, I like keeping it simple with Alfred and Gordon. I could see us losing the sidekicks for a while and have a run that focuses on having Ace as the main “partner”.

Mr_Morbach raises an interesting point about Batwoman. I’ve always gotten the sense that they wrote themselves into a corner with her by creating a character who doesn’t seem like she would particularly want the baggage that comes with wearing a bat. It’s ultimately Bruce’s symbol, so the characters who take it on have to be prepared to live up to what Bruce meant it to signify. Barbara was once, then came to realize that getting dragged into that black hole wasn’t healthy for her and moved on to her own creation of Oracle… and then changed her mind and went back to being Batgirl because iconic or something. AzBats was clearly not prepared, and that was the whole point of his arc. Cass was prepared, and on a few occasions lived up to the “Bat-ideal” better than Bruce was able to, which I think is why her sidelining post-Infinite Crisis stung so much. I never read Stephanie’s Batgirl series, so it’s hard to comment on that, but I don’t think she was necessarily in that position. Honestly, my personal hot take (even liking Tim better than Stephanie as a character) is that Stephanie should’ve been Robin for the long haul, but that’s another discussion.

And then (skipping a few random periphery characters like the Batwings or the Signal who technically have a bat-symbol but meh, and also Kate predates Stephanie’s Batgirl tenure but it would be weird if I continued listing people after I made my actual point) there’s Kate. She’s related to Bruce, sure, but she has different reasons for doing what she does and was never totally comfortable following Batman’s rules and logic. Even the no-kill rule, which is a bare-bones basic component of what Batman is and how he works (and to head off the Snyder fans, let’s say this is about Earth-One, Post-Crisis, and Post-Flashpoint versions) is something Kate had to kind of talk herself into sticking with, and obviously kind of backslid recently.

And don’t take any of this to mean that I don’t like Batwoman or think she should go away. She’s cool. This just feels like something that calls for further development.

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Rereading, I forget how my train of thought came from Mr_Morbach’s. I think it was the comment about Batwoman not actually being in the family.

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Really, the only one I’d get rid of is Duke, not because I dislike him, but because I find him the least interesting out of all the Bat-family members. However, if forced to cut them, I would narrow it down to:

Nightwing
Red Hood
Both Tim and Damien as Robin
Barbara as either Oracle or Batgirl
Cassandra as Batgirl

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As I have said elsewhere on this app: Bruce and Alfred. That’s all Gotham needs.

I would get rid of harper Rowe and batwing and Carrie

The 4 robins and duke is a big maybe I just feel he should be robin orphan batwoman spoiler and batgirl/Oracle and of course Alfred And lastly Terry

And of course the big man himself can’t have a bat family without the man who started it all Bruce Wayne

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I have to say keep it the same… They are what Builds the Batman and what he truly stand for as Hero!

Some men just want to see the world burn. I am that man. Cripple Babs again, kill everyone except for Damien, Dick, and retired Gordon

Excellent topic for debate, @TheLegndKillerX! The Batfamily is definitely getting full! In spite of my initial reservations of extending past Batman and Alfred, I now believe that each member has their own place.

Where the creators have started to branch out and excite me is with the additions of Harper Row (Bluebird) and Duke Thomas (Signal). I L:heart::batman_hv_1:E Batman but these fresh takes are nice one offs that still keep me connected while exploring the greater “universe”. Bluebird is a strong character with an interesting backstory that ties in well with existing content. She fights very hard to be part of the team and proves herself with steadfast dedication and scrappy engineering abilities. The Signal’s powers allow for unique partnerships and solutions, creating deeper storylines within the Batman ecosystem. I look forward to seeing more of both!

She was Bruce’s cousin long before Batman: Eternal. It might very well have been the intention from the very beginning but as far as I can recall the first time we learned of the connection conclusively was when we learned she was related to Bette Kane when she starred in Detective Comics back in 2009. And we already knew Bette was related to Bruce so the connection was made.

Really? I seem to recall Bette was the original Batwoman’s niece, both when first introduced in the 40’s, as well as when she emerged from obscurity, becoming Flamebird. Kate was another, like-named niece, and took the name Batwoman, possibly independent of Kathy Kane’s time, which–I only remember being acknowledged in “The Kingdom”, as far as post-Crisis is concerned.
But given that I never followed either of them, I suppose it’s easy to miss a few details.

You’re right. I forgot that Bette wasn’t related to Bruce and just remembered the Kane connection being made.

I guess that makes either Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne or Batman, Inc. the most likely candidates for first making the connection.

My hot take? I’d like to see development over addition. I’d like to see them all get a little closer and the younger set grow into their own cities.

I would boot everyone not on the following list.

Batman

Nightwing (and none of this “Ric” business)

Oracle

Flamebird (or Hawkfire)

Batwoman (new version)

Red Hood

Red Robin

Batgirl (there’s only one that diserves that title and isn’t listed above as “Oracle”. Tell me different and you will hear from my lawyer (who is @biff_pow’s dog)).

Spoiler (new alias? maybe Black Bat? Never liked “Spoiler”.)

Harold Alnut

Azreal

Lucas Fox

@TheBatgirlofNML

Alfred Pennyworth

Robin

Batwing

Huntress (earth-2 only)

Ace

Titus

Bat-cow

Alfred (that isn’t Pennyworth)

James Gordon Sr.

Bluebird

The Giant Penny & the T-Rex

I stand by everyone written above. I feel like I’m forgetting someone so let me know if someone is missing. (I don’t like Lark (Duke). He isn’t developed enough. He feels forced and bland. Maybe he’ll grow into something I enjoy but for now)

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Actually, I believe Alfred has been called both Alfred and Pennyworth, which is a bit confusing and most likely a mistake, but that would make him Alfred Pennyworth II

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Let’s throw Alfred Beagel in the mix! Then we can instill— well… He said it best!

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(to be clear, you and I are both talking about the cat right?)