Arrowverse Couch Club, Week 3: March 15-17 episodes (Saying goodbye to Ray and Nora)


Welcome to the third week of DCU’s Arrowverse Couch Club! Though we’re now one series short until the fall, there was still plenty of action this week with new episodes of Batwoman, Supergirl, The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow. Legends was particularly memorable this week, as we said goodbye to Ray Palmer and Nora Darhk, the former of which had been around since season 3 of Arrow. The show certainly won’t be the same without them, so let’s pay tribute to the happy couple and celebrate the impact they’ve made on the team over the years.

Batwoman – “Off With Her Head”

  • Much of this season has been dedicated toward the question of whether or not Alice can be redeemed, but now that same questions has been directed right at Kate. Do you think she had some legitimate justification for killing August or was she completely in the wrong? How do you think she’ll be able to move forward now that she’s a killer?

Supergirl – “Reality Bytes”

  • After being sidelined in a number of episodes this season, Nia finally returned to the spotlight in an important episode not only for her, but for the trans community as a whole. How do you feel this episode impacted Nia’s character in relation to her journey in season 5?

The Flash – “The Exorcism of Nash Wells”

  • For all intents and purposes, it seems like Thawne has essentially made himself immortal – even when it looks like he could be gone for good, everyone seems to know that he’ll come back somehow, and he eventually does. Do you like the way in which he’s become this consistent threat to Team Flash, or have you grown tired of him appearing in every season thus far?

Legends of Tomorrow – “Romeo v. Juliet: Dawn of Justness”

  • We all knew that Ray and Nate’s sendoff was going to be a key part of this episode, considering that they have one of the best friendships in the Arrowverse. With all the buildup, did this episode give these two a proper ending?
  • From being raised in a demon cult to now being a fairy godmother, Nora Darhk has certainly had quite the interesting magical life. What has been your favorite thing about her character in the three seasons she’s been on the show?
  • In honor of Ray and Nora’s last episode, what was your favorite Arrowverse moment featuring either character?

Lastly, what was your favorite episode from this week?

  • Batwoman - “Off With Her Head”
  • Supergirl - “Reality Bytes”
  • The Flash - “The Exorcism of Nash Wells”
  • Legends of Tomorrow - “Romeo v. Juliet: Dawn of Justness”

0 voters

1 Like

While I appreciate how Kate is typically willing to take a life if she feels it’s necessary, as it’s one of several key differences between her character and Bruce’s, I’m not sure I can say this particular one was all that justified. Don’t get me wrong, Cartwright was a terrible person who’s ultimately to blame for who Alice and Mouse turned out so deranged and dangerous. That said, it the reveal of something Cartwright did years ago that sent Kate over the edge instead of it being a more calculated decision based on what he could do in the future. It was much more emotionally charged than that, and for such a life-changing decision, I can’t say it’s really justifiable.

Still, that doesn’t mean I think Kate is now irredeemable or anything, but her reasoning for killing Cartwright should definitely have a specific impact on her journey going forward. I imagine she’ll realize that she didn’t have an objectively good reason for killing him in that moment, which will likely cause her to rethink the idea of killing again at all. She may want to adopt Bruce’s no killing rule, but at the same time, she’s also a soldier and is probably more still think that there are some people who have to die, even after this. I definitely see this move putting Kate down a dark path where she’s even working with Alice for a time, but even if this does become a breaking point for her, I’m still confident that she can find a way to retain her sense of heroism.

This was obviously a huge episode for Nia in terms of not only this season, but also her overall journey. Seeing her collapse emotionally at the end was heartbreaking, but it also felt necessary given all she’s been through lately. As the first trans superhero on TV, it’s obviously important that the show deals with issues regarding that part of her identity, but I do also hope that when she does take the spotlight again in the future, it’ll be in regard to stories about other non-related topics. I just don’t want to see her character be so defined by the fact that she’s trans that the show forgets to flesh her out more. It’s important for any character to be defined by more than just one or two things, and especially so in Nia’s case. I think doing more to normalize her as both a superhero and a fully interesting character is an important aspect of representation.

It does seem like Nia’s arc this season has really only been about two things: her relationship with Brainy and her being trans. Those are obviously two important elements that I do want the series to showcase, but her character risks falling flat if they’re the only two elements that get attention throughout the season. Going forward, I just hope that the writers can get more creative with presenting challenges and new stories for Nia, which should give her the strong character development she deserves. I thought this episode did a lot right, but the producers need to keep things varied in order to ensure that Nia remains as interesting as she was last season.

The rivalry between Barry and Thawne is easily one of the best in the Arrowverse, so while I understand that others may want the show to just move on and be done with Reverse Flash, I still love it when he shows up. Knowing that he’s still out there in some form keeps both the characters and the viewers on their toes, anticipating that this larger threat could emerge at any time, even when things are going well. It really mirrors much of their relationship from the comics and lends credence to the idea that they’re intrinsically linked to battle seemingly forever. While not every one of Thawne’s appearances has been a home run, I’m still down to keep seeing him so long as the writers can come up with ways to inject some legitimate creativity into his storylines for when he does inevitably return.

Even though this trope of not wanting to tell someone about this big life change until the last minute has certainly been done before, I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t still effective here. Ultimately, what I love most about their friendship is just how loving and open they are with their emotions, and their goodbye stayed true to that aspect here. There’s still a presumed notion among plenty of people that male friendships are based around making fun of each other and other behaviors that border on bullying. Obviously not every friendship like this is inherently bad – I’ve certainly had good friends where we spend plenty of time roasting each other – but more people need to be aware of how healthy it is to say things like “I love you” to your friends. Sentiments like this don’t have to be restricted to romantic partners and family members, and I think Ray and Nate have done an excellent job of showing more positive aspects of male friendships. Seeing the two of them together is one of many things I’ll be missing now that Ray and Nora are gone.

It’s been fascinating to watch Nora’s redemption arc over the course of the show, and I think my favorite thing about her story is that it shows the importance of having consistent support around you. As a child of evil, it would’ve been easy for the Legends to stick with the simple assumption that she’d never be any better than her father. But all it took was one person believing in her – Ray – to set her on the path to being good. It gave her a chance to really look back on her life and understand that while she was obviously dealt a pretty awful hand in life, she still committed crimes of her own accord for which she needed to atone, which can be very refreshing for a villain to realize. And while Ray has obviously been a major player in that journey, it usually takes more than just one person to affect major change over a long period of time, which is why it was so important for her to get further emotional support from Ava and Mona in their book club meetings. All in all, Nora is a former villain who has absolutely earned the right to be called a hero, and while much of the attention has obviously gone to the character who’s been around longer, we shouldn’t discount the fact that Nora has been amazing in her own right as well.

Ray’s had plenty of great moments in the five-and-a-half years he’s been a part of this universe, but I think my single favorite came in season 2 when he was stranded on the moon with Reverse Flash. I loved how the desperate circumstances of them being stranded forced the two to work together and even find some surprising common ground. You knew it was never gonna result in either of them fully switching sides or anything, but it certainly did cast the fight between the Legends and the Legion of Doom in a different light. It was interesting that it took one of that universe’s biggest villains to make Ray realize that there was always some selfishness in his mission even if it was about helping others, and I think realizing that sort of flaw, while surprising at first, probably helped him to become a more well-rounded hero and overall person as he went on. Plus it made Ray’s death at the hands of Thawne, temporary as it was, all the more shocking considering the short bond they managed to create.

1 Like

Welcome Legendary Island of Misfits to my weekly summary.
I’ll be back to give my thoughts here on the other shows this weekend.

Batwoman: I was very surprised at this turn of events. I think part of it was the parallel between Alice killing Cartwright’s mom and Kate killing Cartwright was because of Kate and Alice’s mom. Kate’s kill is not justified, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t irredeemable. It should be interesting to see Kate, Alice and the Commander work together because “bodies don’t bury themselves”.

Supergirl: a hate episode was inevitable. I thought it was presented well. The endgame was more about why heroes don’t kill. That Nia was so messed up over it kind of sells it. “Sometimes it sucks to be the hero”.

I am amused that between the two, we have one hero that did kill and one that was brought back from the edge.

Flash: Thawne, when done well, is more of a way to shake things up. it moved the artificial speed force subplot, which will somehow be instrumental in the Black Hole reveal and eventual conclusion. I am rabidly speculating. The question is how does the mirrorverse subplot factor into Black Hole?

Legends of Tomorrow: Nora and Ray definitely had a good send off. With respect to Nora, I don’t have much of a favorite moment but to pick something:

Ray: are you hiding me?
Nora: Yes.

Actually, it’s her whole answer to the question which i don’t remember word for word.

Some of my favorite Ray moments are when he became Giant Ray as well as the Fantastic Voyage moment shrinking down to help someone from the inside on the molecular level.

1 Like

I didn’t pick up on this at first, but that’s a great observation. I imagine that connection will be something that lends itself to some twisted sisterly bonding between Kate and Alice for at least the near future.

Obviously we still have more details that need to be revealed, but I’d be surprised if Eva and her work don’t end up having a greater connection to Black Hole. Given that her husband is apparently running it and using several light-based metas to carry out his tasks, all the mirror elements seem to be intrinsically linked with the group. It definitely give me the sense that there’s more to Eva’s mission than just trying to escape

best supergirl episode its about time plus with supergirl backing her she couldnt go wrong.

1 Like

No it was not justified as it was a result of pure emotion. While I like these differences between her and Batman I believe this will serve as a way for Kate to come into her own as Batwoman. Absolutely loved this episode btw​:+1:

1 Like

I felt a little like the killing came out of nowhere. Yes he was instrumental in how Beth transitioned to Alice, but I still didn’t feel he could have pushed her buttons that much to elicit the reaction he did.
I did feel his role as the bogeyman to Mouse and Alice had run its course, as I do not feel there was much more to proceed. Who knows? If he had survived maybe he could have repaired Harvey Dent’s face when he has his accident? We know he exists because we met his niece in a prior episode.
Will this death impact Batwoman’s public appearance or will the commander keep it a secret? The public has started to trust her and would this split people on the debate whether she should kill bad guys in the future and if do, what is heinous enough to warrant death?
I saw her drinking at end of episode so hopefully she doesn’t spiral down like a certain demon in a bottle.

1 Like

I don’t mind him as long as they don’t make him the big bad of a season again. I’m glad they had him go away this episode so they can refocus on Black Hole and Eva. If they want to make him the threat from the shadows, coming out to cause problems or even tragedy from time to time, which I think works best. The thing you tell kids to be scared of in the dark.
I did love that the Council of Wells resides inside Nash. It allows us to still see our favorites but cuts down the actual Wells to one. I also liked the backstory on Nash and Allegra’s doppelgänger. Initially I thought they were going to show the whole story without the actress playing her, sorta like how 7th Heaven had Jessica Bowl’s character have her baby without the actress on screen. I’m glad they showed her because it added that extra emotional punch needed to show why Nash feels guilty. At first I didn’t like Nash as I missed Harry but he has grown on me. Maybe he will continue to develop with the wisdom of the infinite Wells.

1 Like

I didn’t have as emotional reaction to Nora leaving as I did Ray leaving but i will miss her because of late she has been the one to provide solid advice to others. I can’t point to a certain moment but I do remember when she turned herself into the Time Bureau to pay for her crimes. If I remember correctly she did so for Ray. He really did help turn her around on her path to becoming hero.
The moment that really got to me was Nate and Ray’s emotional goodbye. They really have been together for a long time and just the way they said it sucks and I love you was perfect. They show there is a place for caring heterosexual men on tv.
I was worried they would miss each other without a goodbye.
It was not a Ray moment but I enjoyed Brandon getting a second chance as Clark Kent and Superman during Crisis. He nailed the wholesomeness of the character while still conveying the tragedy he had witnessed in life.
I will miss them both and wish then well.

1 Like

It’s definitely going to be an important part of her journey. I do hope that she’ll draw a harder line in the sand than someone like Oliver in terms of not killing so many people. I wouldn’t be surprised if August isn’t her only kill, but I also don’t wanna see another hero who can be as casual about killing as he was at times

You gotta figure that’s gonna be happening soon since it hasn’t already, and it could actually be an interesting thread in the future. When Two-Face emerges and starts his crime rampage, Kate might start to blame herself for killing the person in Gotham who would’ve had the best chance at helping Dent

Jacob still doesn’t know that Kate is Batwoman, so he doesn’t have to make that call yet, though I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before he does find out. For now, I imagine he’ll be one the side of helping Kate since, as far as he knows, he’s just helping his daughter and not the vigilante he’s been so against

It’s a potentially brilliant setup for allowing us to see all the different Wells we’ve come to love over the years. One thing I’m also curious about - does this include Earth-1 Wells? I know he was already long dead by the time Crisis hit, which would probably exclude him, but I’ve always been curious about what he was like since we got to see so little of him in season 1

The way they complement each other is definitely another reason why they’re so great together. Nora’s rooted in the world of magic but is usually the more level-headed, rational one, while Ray is rooted in the world of science but, like Sara said, always has so much giddy optimism that isn’t necessarily based on logic.


I liked the line “Crisis of Infinite Wells”.

I liked the back and forth between the Romeo & Juliet scene and Nate and Ray’s goodbye.

1 Like


I feel like Nia is going to learn to fight even stronger for people than she already has after this. I would love to see more of her “working” on her powers since she seemed really upset she couldn’t help her friend in the beginning. Since it’s been 6 days since I watched and my memory isn’t the best, but I think they mentioned something about her coming out as trans…but didn’t she already do that?

I felt this episode has a lot going on in it. Almost too much. The Nia arc this episode could have been even more impactful if they spent the whole episode on it? Not that I didn’t also enjoy the Jonn/Alex arc (hey Corbin Bleu!) but they could have easily been separate episodes.

The balcony crying scene really got me. I thought that was very emotional and well done.

I don’t think I’ll ever get tired of Reverse Flash. He’s Barry biggest nemesis. After they say he was still out there but formless, I said to myself “that was a smart choice.” So now there is always this looming threat of when he will come back. I mean, it’s always been that way but I’m excited he’s not gone forever.

I really like that they also found a way to bring back the council of Wells and Harry. That will be really funny seeing him talk to himself in future episodes.

Now can we discuss Ralph. Where has he been! Even if he’s on his own adventure I want to see it! I miss him. At least Frost still follows his lessons :joy:


I wasn’t too emotional because I knew it was coming but the Ray and Nate send off was pretty good in my opinion. I thought Nate would miss his chance but I’m glad it worked out. The line that got me the most is when Nate is sad and talking to Sara about how if you do your friendship right, they need you less.

I loved Nora! I love everything she did. Even at the beginning when she was a villian. Her evolution from this pawn for her father to figuring out what she wanted to do with her life has really been one of the best on the show. I am always going to wish we got to see more of her, like her living on the ship, or her helping out with more missions, but I think they did her justice. She basically gave up her newly free life to help children. How much more noble can you get?

I have really been thinking hard about my favorite Ray moment but if I really had to pick one I think I would go back to the baby dominator episode. I just loved everything about that episode. Other than that I just loved his hopelessly optimistic attitude on all aspects of life.

My favorite Nora moment has to be the beginning of book club and when Nora was realizing she could make a life for herself and when she got the letter from Ray, that she debated a whole episode on opening, only to see that he was there the whole time.

So, I’m still slacking on Batwoman, but I’ll catch up, I swear!


1 Like

Agreed. A Nia-centric episode, great. I love to meet other people of her alien race. That would be a cool episode. (Besides her family) Does her mother’s race still exist? I can’t remember if they’ve mentioned that.

Definitely agree here. I think she definitely has a bigger part in black hole than is being shared. I don’t really understand how she can control all these clone-people but she can’t actually get out herself…and I was thinking maybe she’s also controlling her husband and we don’t know it? If Iris came to the mirror and got sucked in why wouldn’t her husband…but then wouldn’t he have to be in the mirror verse? And it doesn’t look like he is…

1 Like

Totally forgot about this subplot. It was nice to learn something about Nash. Like they say in the show, we barely know him! All wells backstories seems to be tragic. He has grown on me but I’m over here still missing HR.

That’s right! And the rule follower ray gave her the time stone to escape! That is also a favorite of mine.


Definitely agree on that. It seemed like the whole VR storyline was just a stretched out way of setting up Leviathan’s endgame for this season, which still really isn’t any clearer. I feel like they’ve really been falling flat as villains this season, but at least the next VR story has a novel premise that should be a lot more entertaining.

You’re in luck because he’s coming back next episode w/ Sue! (even if we do have to wait until April) It is a bit odd how that thread has been dropped over the last few episodes, but hopefully this will shed some light on Sue’s connection to Black Hole.

I’ve been very curious as to what happened w/ Nia’s family, particularly her sister. I get that they’d need time apart after Maeve said something so awful, but it’s been long enough where we should at least have some sort of update on that whole situation.

It’s like we saw earlier, when she tries to get out, it burns her skin. Since she can’t go back to the real world w/out seemingly dying, she has to be working out some way to re-stabilize herself.

1 Like

Agreed. I’ve been waiting for a SuperAlex story since at least early season 2. Or a reverse type world. I know tomorrow’s episode will be a favorite of mine.

That is an interesting connection. I’m thinking a lot of the remaining story is connected to Black Hole. I think it’s ironic they have all light based metas, but their name is Black Hole…where no light can escape.

Definitely agree. Even if we didn’t go back to nia’s hometown her sister could have visited.

Yea, we were shown why she physically can’t go back. But I’m just saying if she figured out a way to control multiple clones, why couldn’t she figure out a way to get out? I’ll just stick to “plot reasons” on this one, haha.

I don’t think I mentioned before but I’m fine with the weekly discussion post coming early with new no flash or legends episode. Edit: just saw the vote for this

1 Like

I definitely appreciate the irony there. Maybe it’s intentional, like it’s a subtle way of telling all the light-based metas who work for them that there’s no escape…OK, I’m probably overthinking that part

At this point, even just a throwaway line could work. It probably wouldn’t be the best option, but it would still be more than we’ve gotten since last season.

1 Like

Finally caught up with Batwoman…and now I just need more! The show has been great.

Of course she had justification. Half the time I can’t even stomach all the things that have happened to Alice. And now this story about her mom? Hasn’t she been hurt enough? Yes, of course the hero is never suppose to kill, but it makes for good tv. Now Kate will carry this throughout how ever long this show continues and learn to deal. I’m actually surprised that Alice left him for Kate to find. She does say that her plan was for Kate to kill him so Kate will realize they still are very similar…but Alice has killed for less and I am shocked that the whole reason she is the way she is, because of this man, and she let someone else have the kill. She even says in her lair that she has to focus so she doesn’t kill him too fast.

Now, I kept thinking Kate killed him in her bar, will she have trouble going back there now?

I love what they are doing with Mary and just giving subtle hints to Kate. It’s good comic relief. Mary continues to be one of my favorite characters. Her clinic doesn’t seem to be very hidden, also how does she afford to keep it open? Does she just have money like most arrowverse characters and we aren’t supposed to wonder about it? :joy:

1 Like

I’m not sure they’ve directly addressed this much, but between the money the Kane and Hamilton families have together along w/ however much Mary makes as a notable influencer, I’d imagine that she has enough to cover the costs of the clinic while still living comfortably. She could probably afford to funnel more money into the clinic, but I feel like she’d still feel the need to keep up a certain lavish lifestyle so as not to raise any suspicions