Arrowverse Couch Club Season Two, Week 36: Jay Garrick Debuts on Stargirl


This week’s Tuesday lineup of the Arrowverse gave us a wonderful addition to the Justice Society, as John Wesley Shipp jumped from The Flash over to Stargirl to reprise his role as Jay Garrick, though this time as the Earth-2 version of the classic hero. Jay appeared in Pat’s flashbacks to a time when the JSA was forced with a terrible dilemma, and those memories were triggered by Eclipso going after him, Mike and Barbara in the next step of his plan to dismantle his opponents. Over on Earth-1, Supergirl and Nyxly targeted the totem of humanity next, as Lena began to get a better hold over her magical abilities and CatCo sought to finally put out an article on the Super Friends and give the public even more information about them.

Stargirl – “Summer School: Chapter Nine”

  • Did the original JSA make the right call in deciding to kill Bruce Gordon to force Eclipso back into the Black Diamond?
  • How did you like seeing Jay Garrick make his debut on the show, especially since he was once again played by John Wesley Shipp?

Supergirl – “Magical Thinking”

  • Though it was never explicitly stated, it certainly now looks like Kelly and Alex will be officially adopting Esme. How do you feel about this development in terms of how it’ll allow Alex to finally become a mother?
  • Did you agree with the decision to let CatCo report on the Super Friends’ dealings and reveal more details about them, or should they have stayed more closed off to the public?
Which episode from this week was your favorite?
  • Stargirl – “Summer School: Chapter Nine”
  • Supergirl – “Magical Thinking”

0 voters


Even knowing the damage it did to the team’s spirit and how it could’ve ultimately led to their downfall against the ISA, I’m not sure I can think of any other outcome that would’ve worked. Given the powerhouses that went up against Eclipso and failed, the team really didn’t seem to have any other option. We’ve already seen how dangerous Eclipso can be, so it’s easy to imagine exactly how bad the odds seemed for the JSA and just how desperate they would’ve been in that moment. And while I get that Pat and Jay were advocating for finding another way, you have to figure they probably already exhausted every other option they had. We obviously know the negative consequences making this move had on the team in the long run, but I feel like things would’ve been even worse for them if they hadn’t made this horrible decision. It was a terrible situation they were in, and so no decision was going to be objectively good, but I still maintain that at least this one ended w/ the least amount of death by far

John Wesley Shipp is a fantastic actor and I’m always happy to see him back Jay in any capacity, as it really feels like the kind of role he was born to play. He always has such a warm presence about him, and that really came across effectively here. It was great to see him stand up for Pat and try to help them understand that he’s just as much a part of the team as they are, even if that’s really something Sylvester should be doing

That said, I will admit that I probably got my hopes up a bit too much that this appearance would have some sort of direct connection to Earth-Prime beyond just the similar casting. I certainly knew that the more likely outcome is that Shipp would only be playing Earth-2 Jay, but I guess I’m desperate enough for there to be some sort of crossover between Stargirl and the main Arrowverse that I let myself believe this could lead to that for a little too long. I still believe a crossover will be coming at some point, maybe even in next month’s “Armageddon,” but I shouldn’t let the fact that there wasn’t one here sully my enjoyment of seeing Jay on the show. I still hope he can appear more next season (and hopefully beyond that) and that this could lead to the appearance of more classic JSA members like Alan Scott, the Hawks, Dr. Fate, Spectre, Sandman, etc.

As frustrating as it’s been to see Alex go about a season and a half w/ absolutely no progress on this arc, I can at least be happy that the writers didn’t completely forget about it and are fulfilling it in a way that I wouldn’t have expected, but that still feels fitting. I had been imagining that if/when Alex became a mom, it’d be to a newborn or at least very young baby since that’d allow her to go through the entirety of motherhood, so this definitely throws a wrench into those expectations, but in a good way. The fact that Esme is just old enough to have already bonded w/ Kelly already puts her relationship w/ her future moms off to a good start. Additionally, there’s really no couple more suited to care for a superpowered child than Alex and Kelly. While they obviously don’t have powers themselves, they have more than enough experience dealing w/ people who do to ensure they’ll have a good handle on whatever Esme’s exact abilities are. Plus she’ll have a bunch of new aunts and uncles who do have powers that’ll be able to help out even more as she gets older. And above all else, Esme is just the absolute cutest and I really wanna see her interacting w/ everyone as she starts to become a part of the family. Between all of that and seeing Alex finally get to realize her dream of becoming a mom, I’m 100% in favor of this move

While I certainly wouldn’t want to see all of the team members’ secret identities exposed or anything, as that’d be catastrophic to their safety, I otherwise did agree w/ this move. It does feel odd at 1st since we’re really not used to seeing any of the main teams from the other shows have this level of public exposure, but as has been brought up several times before, it’s important to let the people know more about what the team is doing to help keep them safe. Not only are they the ones being protected, but doing so allows them to weigh in on certain matters and make sure they’re being heard. And since the public now knows about Nyxly and her quest for the totems, they can better anticipate future dangerous situations involving her instead of just being completely surprised whenever something big happens. Having this sort of dynamic between the Super Friends and the public is something that could really continue making for interesting storylines, which again makes it a shame that we only have 6 more episodes left before the show ends


I am once again an episode behind on Supergirl, but I should be able to catch up tomorrow.

It’s a tough call. From the outside, it is easy to say they have made the wrong call. But with an evil demon threatening the world and their families, for them to look at one life and weigh it against everything else, it might not have been.

My instinct is that they made the wrong call, but there wasn’t much else they could have done anyway. I think the fact that it caused the JSA to drift apart and eventually fall apart completely means they know they made the wrong call. But they also saved the world. So, no matter what, it’s hard.

The new JSA has a hard call to make now too. Though, Eclipso doesn’t have a host now so I’m not sure how they will stop him.

I’m always happy to see Jay. He is always a happy face and a pocket of wisdom. I really liked how he was firmly against killing Bruce. And that John Wesley Shipp was still able to play him. It’s nice to have the consistency with some of the characters across the multiverse.

Also, I wanted to say that my roommate was watching this episode with me and was yelling at the JSA members when they were mean to Pat in the flashbacks. It seemed a lot more than it had been in previous flashbacks, I know they had never really trusted Pat with much but it just felt different in this episode for some reason. I’m not sure if that was intentional. But I did love Jay defending Pat.

1 Like

You could say that both moves were the wrong call, but just that this one was slightly less wrong

Very true. Among other things, this flashback firmly establishes that they can’t just do the same thing as before. It certainly would’ve made things much easier, but where’s the fun in that?

I think it’s safe to say your roommate was all of us. It’d be 1 thing if Pat was an actual child/teenager, but he’s a grown-ass adult just like the rest of them. Hell, he’s older than Sylvester and maybe even the rest of them. They have a decent point about him not actually being out in the field and risking his life like the rest of them, but he’s still a valuable part of the team and deserves to be a part of conversations like this

1 Like

In hindsight, it seemed like not the right call because it helped to split up the JSA and made them vulnerable when facing the ISA and inadvertently leading to most of their deaths. However, at the time, part of the decision may also have been vengeance and not justice. Do not forget that Eclipso was responsible for the death of Dr Midnite’s daughter which impacted them greatly. They were going off Shade’s word too that this was the only way to stop him. This reminded me of the great and controversial comic series Identity Crisis. One of their villains did something so heinous that the heroes did something they would never have thought to do, wipe a villain’s mind. This came back to haunt them years later as the secrets came out, which we are seeing play out with Courtney’s anger at not being told this secret. At the time they were battling Eclipso, I do not know if they had many supernatural heroes who could have helped them at the time to determine an alternate way, such as exorcising Eclipso first and then trapping him in the diamond. I believe they would have had Spectre, but he may have been in his wrath of God phase so maybe he would have done the same. Alan Scott’s ring brings light and was mystical in nature at that time, so maybe there could have been something there. I just know they were suffering losses, and then a family member was killed, so this may have led to the decision to stop before anyone else gets hurt. Would we be having this conversation if it was just something like Doomsday and not a spirit that inhabits someone innocent?

I have been a huge fan of John Wesley Shipp for a long time as shown in my drawing for the weekly challenge for DC Fan Art Club: Weekly Art Challenge #59 Submission Thread - September 4 - 11, 2021 - JSA! - #11 by ImpulseMaxMercury
I loved the Flash when it was originally on TV and I like that he now represents the earlier generation. His upbeat and positive nature have been perfect. I like that he looks out for all members of the team and treats Pat with respect as well. This goes along with his nature as a father figure. He was in the role in multiple universes, as on Earth-Prime, he was mentor to Impulse. He has appeared as the same character across both shows, so it makes you wonder if in the past on Earth-2, maybe in the final battle with the ISA, he crossed over to our Earth-Prime and had a life there. Then, it could be all tied together across the multiverse. We really do not know much of Earth-Prime’s Jay’s backstory so this could be interesting if this was what happened. My only complaint was that he was only very briefly on the episode and did not have much air time, but that also made sense as the focus was on Starman and their decision to kill Bruce. Of course, having this focus also made me kinda dislike the team’s treatment of Pat as just a sidekick. They did not seem very heroic to me when they kept being condescending to them, even though he had valid points. Did Batman treat Robin that way?

1 Like

That’s true, their desire for revenge definitely would’ve been a factor in their decision. And while Shade’s involvement certainly could’ve further corrupted them, I’m still convinced that he legitimately wants Eclipso gone and wouldn’t push them in the wrong direction as far as that specific point is concerned. Their contention is still more likely to be over other things

They did specifically mention Spectre, but based on what they said, it seems like he did in fact try to take Eclipso down only to fail, so I don’t think his commitment was an issue there

They also mentioned Green Lantern, and he also had no luck

Until/unless they specifically disprove it, the possibility will still be out there. I’d just love to see the full extent of that final fight against the ISA w/ all the characters they couldn’t get in at the very beginning

He definitely would’ve at times, but the difference is that Robin is typically an actual child, so Bruce would have to curb some of his more reckless ideas. Doesn’t feel nearly as justified treating Pat in that way, though, considering he was already much older than a kid at that point

1 Like

I keep forgetting this is the final season and then something like this happens and I remember. I think this is a great step for Kelly and Alex. Though, managing double superheroing life and raising an alien child with powers is going to lead to them having no time to do anything, I’m sure they will figure it out.

I’m just happy to see the three of them get some good in their lives.

Yes and No. I assume this is going to lead to William figuring out Nia and Kara, if he hasn’t already. But I do think that some things that the Super Friends deal with should be kept of the record and Nxyl is one of them. To just announce the existence of a 5th dimension, Imps, and magic to the publics seems a bit impulsive and dangerous to me.

I do like how William has found his leverage at CatCo, though. And what is with Andrea? Her character has done a hard 180 this second half of the season, I feel like. It just has felt weird this whole time.

1 Like

To be fair, raising a kid of any kind was always gonna be a huge time management challenge w/ what they do, but I definitely agree they’ll be able to make it work, especially since this is something they both really want

I’ve kinda resigned myself to the fact that he’s gonna find out soon. Granted, William’s been better this season since I no longer have to worry about him being forced into a pointless and awful romance w/ Kara, but I still feel like he really doesn’t serve much of a purpose or have much of an actual character

She’s basically turning into a secondary villain at this point. But I never really got into her character all that much to begin w/, so I’m not really upset over this

1 Like

Oh, absolutely. No matter what it was going to be hard. And I think Esme is going to figure out their double lives quickly. Which will make thinks a little easier for them.

I am very happy that they dropped this sub-plot. But he does feel like he is floating in the middle of nowhere right now. But it is kind of nice to see that happen to a male character instead of a female one, for once. Though, I do hope he finds his plot footing soon.

I liked her ‘I’ve been forced to work for the evil alien empire people’ vibe she had originally but then Crisis erased that. Now she is just mean. And I’m not really sure where it came from. It just feels like the writers needed a secondary place of plot pressure for Kara/Nia/William. But Kara and Nia never go to work anymore so it’s just William.

1 Like

She’ll either figure it out quickly or they’ll just tell her pretty much right away. It’s not like w/ another adult where they’d need to wait until they feel they can trust her. W/ a kid, they’re either gonna tell her quickly or not at all, and I can’t see the latter happening

I’m glad they at least realized the romance was the wrong decision, but just because he was introduced last season doesn’t mean he had to stick around. It would’ve been a lot better if he was just given a quick sendoff, leaving Kara and Nia to cover the journalistic aspects, as should’ve always been the case

1 Like

Both great episodes, but again Stargirl comes out on top. It is such a strong show. Supergirl is going out on a high note though, as the story keeps getting better. I really appreciate the coming adoption/fostering of Esme. That story alone was worth the price of admission, and it barely featured (like 3 scenes total I believe). I really hope to see more of the original JSA in action as well. If I can’t get the WWII JSA story on screen, I’ll gladly watch what Stargirl is offering…


As for Shade, I was thinking less that he was corrupting them, and more that he would want Eclipso gone. As a sometimes villain, he may more willing to kill someone to accomplish his goals than they would, so he may provide this solution as the most direct way to get it done even if there were other ways. As he says their goals align but he may have told them this to get it done as quickly as possible. I also feel he did genuinely care about the fact a child was killed and he does have a moral code even if it is a little darker.

1 Like

Now that you mentioned it I do remember them saying GL and Spectre. Geez if they could not get it done I wonder how the JSA got the drop on Bruce to kill him. They were powerful members.

I still am hopeful for the multiverse to become known again, and for crossovers to occur. Another thought is maybe this is Jay from the future of the Flash and he started again in past on earth two. He had already worked with a team, cared about them as a family which may be why he treated Pat with respect as well.

True Robin was a child so this made more sense. Pat is an adult and closer in age so there is not a reason F or their treatment of him.

1 Like

True, they would’ve known that he was much more willing to kill Eclipso than they would’ve been. Although this all begs the question – why didn’t Shade just kill Bruce Gordon? And why did nobody on the JSA ask themselves that? Now I’m getting more skeptical of Shade’s intentions. I still believe that he wanted and still wants Eclipso gone, but as far as the 1st round went, maybe he was hoping to eliminate Eclipso and the JSA in 1 move, getting them to kill the host and therefore break their collective spirit

They certainly were, but I’m assuming they went after Eclipso more directly instead of just Bruce. If those JSA members we saw got into a fight w/ Eclipso, they wouldn’t have stood a chance, but it was more a matter of deciding whether to overcome the moral problem

1 Like