Arrowverse Couch Club Season Two, Week 24: Batwoman Season Finale


Though Kate Kane may no longer be the Bat of the Future, it now seems safe to say that mantle has fully passed over to Ryan Wilder. This week at the Arrowverse Couch Club, we’re celebrating the finale of Batwoman’s second season as Roman and Circe Sionis made their final plays to seize control of Gotham. But without the Batsuit, Ryan, Luke, Mary and Sophie must find a different way to save their city from being taken over by total chaos, and to do that, Luke will have to suit up as a new kind of hero for Gotham. Elsewhere on Earth-Prime, Sara tried to make her first mission back with the Legends go as smoothly as possible in the Wild West (spoiler alert: it didn’t), and Barry had to contend with an army of Godspeeds descending on Central City on The Flash.

Legends of Tomorrow – “Stressed Western”

  • Now that Constantine will be off searching for the Fountain of Imperium to restore his magic, are you hoping to see this adventure fully play out on screen, or are you over this show’s MacGuffins (Spear of Destiny, Totems of Zambesi, Loom of Fate, etc.) and would rather just see that this happened off-screen?
  • One bit of interesting casting (besides David Ramsey as Bass Reeves) is that Levi Stapleton is the second character Nic Bishop has played this season, with the first being General Kilgore, the war-hungry general from “Bay of Squids.” What do you make of this? Is it purely a coincidence in the casting, or could this be indicative of something larger being set up for the second half of the season?

Batwoman – “Power”

  • Now that Alice has finally apologized for the death of Ryan’s adoptive mother and is behind bars once again, does it seem possible that Ryan could actually be ready to forgive her?
  • After the finale aired, it was revealed that Dougray Scott (Jacob Kane) would be exiting the show after being absent from the last two episodes. Are you OK with Jacob being written off like this, or should he have stuck around at least a while longer?

The Flash – “Enemy at the Gates”

  • Do you think Mark deserves to be redeemed similar to how Frost was, or has he simply not earned it after everything he did to her?
What was your favorite episode from this week?
  • Legends of Tomorrow – “Stressed Western”
  • Batwoman – “Power”
  • The Flash – “Enemy at the Gates”

0 voters

Even though I’m not necessarily sick of the MacGuffins themselves, I’m still torn about this particular development regarding Constantine. On the one hand, finding a lost alien artifact of incredible power could look really cool and I’m not too keen on John being written off for a few episodes only to come back fully powered. That’d ultimately feel anti-climactic after this development of losing his magic promised to continue pushing the character in new, interesting directions. That said, I also have to question the (apparent) decision to go this route instead of having him train again like he said he would. It’s definitely working w/ Astra, but has he just not actually been doing it himself? He doesn’t seem to have any of his magic back, but I don’t remember him saying anything about the training not working or something similar. Right now, it kinda just seems like he doesn’t wanna wait as long as the training would take and is thus looking for a quicker way to regain his powers. Assuming that’s the case, it’s kinda disappointing that he’d be this impatient and be willing to risk so much for this sort of move. At this rate, Astra’s gonna end up being the team magician and could even become as powerful as John was at his peak. If he’d just go along w/ the training, which should be even easier for him since he had already been through it, it’d seem like this sort of thing wouldn’t even be necessary. But then again, if this ends up being the central conflict for the back half of the season, then maybe it’ll end up making more sense from a general narrative perspective

OK, so I actually came up w/ the following theory before I learned a simple fact that explains this all a lot more clearly: Nic Bishop and Jes Macallan (Ava) have been dating since 2018. So it seems a lot more likely that he’s getting to play multiple characters because his partner is the Waverider’s co-captain (nobody tell Sara). Still, I figured I’d put my initial theory out there anyway just for fun:

The more I look into this, the more connections I’m seeing between these characters, and thus the more I think this is a very deliberate move. For one, both Kilgore and Stapleton exist around true historical figures but, as far as I can tell, never actually existed in real life themselves. You had JFK, Bobby Kennedy and Robert McNamara in the White House along w/ Bass Reeves in the Wild West, but Bishop’s characters seem to be purely historical fiction. Neither of these instances on their own seem particularly noticeable since Legends is course a work of fiction and thus introducing fully fictional characters all the time. But given this repeat connection and the number of actual people from history that get included on the show, I do think this is worth mentioning. Furthermore, they’ve both served as villains in the episode apart from the main alien threat, and they’re both dead. And this last point might sound a bit too paranoid, but look at the actor’s last name again. Yep. Coincidence? I think…well maybe. It would be quite a stretch to cast someone because they happened to share a name w/ the big bad, but this wouldn’t be the 1st time Legends utilized an actor’s real-life persona in a meta way (remember John Noble and Mallus?). Perhaps people like Kilgore, Stapleton and (presumably) others are actually the last of Bishop’s clones that have been sent throughout history and even contain just enough of a trace of Bishop’s consciousness to resurrect him. This could ultimately be how Bishop survives and makes his return. Or maybe this could turn out to be similar to the bloodthirsty Gideon theory, which has gone absolutely nowhere since like the 3rd episode. Either way, I’m definitely gonna be keeping a watchful eye for any future Bishop sightings, in more ways than one…

Considering all of this and the fact that Alice was key in helping Ryan bring down Black Mask and restoring Kate’s memories, I would actually think she might be capable of such an action. That said, I now think it’s gonna be hingent on what happens with the situation surrounding Ryan’s birth mother. This seems like the kind of thing Alice could set up as a way to give Ryan false hope only to see it be snatched away from her. I could see her lying like this simply as a way to hurt Ryan and spite her, since it may be all she can do (for now) from her cell. But even if she’s telling the truth, there’s no telling where Ryan’s mother is or what state she’s in now. She could be in a great condition, ready to finally be a healthy part of her daughter’s life, or she could be a complete mess and someone who would end up being a burden on Ryan. Or maybe the show could even take things a step further and have Ryan’s mom be a big bad

There are ultimately a number of ways this could play out where it ends up being that Alice only told Ryan this in an attempt to hurt her more, which may mean that Ryan will never forgive her. Or maybe things will turn out better than expected, and even if they don’t, I think it’s possible that Ryan could feel some sort of gratitude for Alice giving her the chance to finally meet her birth mother. Regardless of how things play out, given that the show seems to still be steering Alice toward some sort of partial redemption into an anti-hero, it seems like Ryan might have to learn to accept Alice’s presence if she can actually do some good, even if Ryan remains unable to forgive her

Between Jacob disbanding the Crows, being arrested and then transferred out of Gotham, I guess I should’ve seen this coming. I’ve definitely enjoyed his character across both of these seasons, but I’ll also admit that Jacob has been at his most interesting when his development is tied to the Kane family drama. But now that Kate is leaving and Ryan is continuing to forge ahead as Batwoman, it makes sense to truly shift the focus to your lead and leave most of that drama behind. Alice and Mary will still be around to provide a connection to it, of course, but it wouldn’t make sense to keep splitting the storylines between Ryan and the Kanes like this season did. Don’t get me wrong, it was absolutely the right call to do so in season 2 in order to make the transition from Kate to Ryan work, it’s just not a strategy that’s sustainable in the long term. Kate needed a proper send-off, but this is now Ryan’s show fully, and so more of the focus needs to be put on her for season 3 and (hopefully) beyond. With all that in mind, I can understand why the writers probably felt that Jacob just didn’t quite have a place on this show as a regular anymore, though I’m sure he would’ve if Kate had stayed the main character. Though he was written off in a somewhat uneventful way, I can at least appreciate the reasoning behind the move in general and look forward to him making an appearance or 2 down the road, as Caroline Dries did indicate that as possibility later on

I’d be a hypocrite if I said Mark doesn’t deserve to be redeemed at all while also being completely supportive of Frost’s redemption, but there are 2 distinct factors between these cases that make me unwilling to accept this just yet: Mark’s “redemption” is being forced way too quickly, and his previous activity was directed at 1 person, so he needs to do a lot more to make things up to Frost specifically. Frost had to spend years making up for her crimes and proving herself as a hero to Team Flash and all of Central City. That felt like a good, natural progression of things, and the payoff of Frost finally fighting as a full-on hero was pretty satisfying. That all just makes this situation worse w/ Mark, who’s trying to do in seemingly weeks what Frost did in years. I’m sorry, but after setting Frost up for murder and theft, along w/ trying to kill her twice, his actions since then just haven’t been nearly enough to warrant a redemption. I’m sure the testimony he provided as a state witness was pretty substantial to allow for a full release, but that hardly means he suddenly saw the light and only wanted to do good from here on out. If he was promised a release from Iron Heights, then it very well could’ve been a completely selfish decision on his part. (Side note: Wouldn’t he have gone into witness protection or some sort of protective custody after this? It hardly seems like a good decision to let the world know he’s a rat and then just dump him out on his own. At least if he went into witness protection, we probably wouldn’t have to see him again.)

I feel like it can’t have been more than a couple months in the show’s timeline since Mark last tried to kill Frost, and I just don’t understand how she seemed so willing to forgive him for everything so quickly. Recruiting him to help fight the Godspeeds because they were incredibly desperate is something I can understand, but not everything else. I also can’t stand how Mark keeps bringing up their “good” chemistry. Like, dude, if it was really that good, then you wouldn’t actually have to say anything about it. Natural chemistry just comes across…well, naturally. At the end of the day, I don’t even want Frost and Mark to be friends, let alone lovers. But I wouldn’t be opposed to him becoming Frost’s nemesis just so that we can see him get his ass kicked by her on multiple occasions. That’d definitely be pretty amusing


I would like to see some of this. I assume he’ll get into some trouble and Gideon will send everyone to help him out. I’m more concerned that he is going alone. No Gary? No Astra?

Yeah, the MacGuffins have been used a lot in this show. But this episode also had a singing-fourth-wall-breaking-Cowboy. So I think this show can do whatever it wants. I actually enjoyed the Spear/Totems/Loom and I’m sure the Fountain isn’t going to be exactly what John thinks it is going to be. But it should be fun to see.

I didn’t even notice this. Maybe? But I have no idea.

It all depends on if this Birth Mother thing is real. If Alice is lying there is no going back from that. I think Ryan could forgive her slightly. She trusted Alice enough to fight alongside her but that was only because she knew Alice wanted to save Kate too. I’m not sure Alice can be trusted to do the right thing because she wants to.

I think I said this a couple weeks ago. That phone call just felt very final. But I am okay with this. I know Jacob is important in the comics but with Kate leaving, Alice exposed as Beth and the Crows gone, it makes more sense to have his story end here. Maybe a one-liner next season about him getting out of Jail and moving out of Gotham would wrap it all up fully.

This is happening way too fast. Eventually, yes. But not in two weeks time. He only helped Frost because he likes her and they were literally stuck in a life or death situation. Same idea as Alice, I can’t trust him to do the right thing because he wants to. Now he has his weapons back and is free.

Frost’s redemption took years. And she is still working through it. Mark shouldn’t get one in half a season just so Frost can have a love interest.

Also, is Candice Patton okay? It felt like they deliberately didn’t have her in this episode. It was weird.

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Seriously. At this point, Astra’s a much more powerful sorcerer than John, so you’d think they’d team up on this one, though maybe it’ll be revealed that he did take her along. But at the very least, I figure he’s gotta be taking Crowley’s painting along for the ride. They’d certainly bicker a lot, but at least he’d still have someone to talk to

This feels like the appropriate response :laughing:

True, regardless of how much further she gets from her fully villainous persona, I’m sure there’s always gonna be at least some selfishness marking her actions. Even though this potential reveal carries a lot of weight for Ryan, hopefully she still knows to take this w/ at least a grain of salt, along w/ anything else Alice says

I could see something like this happening, but I also feel like they’d need to add in a little more to justify him moving out of the city. As it stands atm, I feel like he’d actually want to stay in Gotham for Mary and to try and further help Alice. But if they write in some further explanation to account for a move in spite of this, then it could better explain things while also still leaving the door open for a brief return later on

As much as I dislike the self-blaming act from Arrowverse heroes, if Frost specifically blames herself for this situation, I’ll have to agree. It’d just be a result of how badly Frost and her current arc is being written after a pretty strong start to the season for her. She’s simply too smart for this and deserves way better

I noticed that, too, but she’ll be in the next episode and presumably the last 2 of the season after that, so she’s definitely fine. She just might not have been available when this episode was shooting or maybe it was purely a creative decision

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I have not looked to see if the actor Matt Ryan is going to be tied up in any outside projects and this was their way to explain his absence. This may be the real world explanation for this, but I am not sure.
Anyways, I am Ok with a few episodes without him, as we get to see more of Astra as she is learning (now on her own, I guess?) and trying on her own with magic. I have been enjoying seeing her try, not always successfully to do spells and then cheer when she does it at just the right moment like the one in this past episode. Hmmm, maybe this would be a way to introduce Zatanna in live action to the show as a magical mentor and adding another strong female character?
As for John’s quest, I would not want it to be completely offscreen, but I would hope his search would be offscreen, but then when he finally finds it that this is shown on the show and the consequences. Because magic always has a price. I just hope it is not a case where they turn him into a big bad because he is infused with a lot of dark magic as I have seen this on too many shows already (Buffy, Legacies) and I would want to see something different.
Another cool thought, though not likely, is that the fountain is located in a swamp where John meets with Swamp Thing? Sorry I like to to think about possibilities since this show is already out there.

I had not realized it until you mentioned it that Nic Bishop has played multiple people on the show, both people who were not really in history but seemed to interact with historical characters. I think it seems to be more of a coincidence, but I did enjoy reading your theories @arkhamassassin ! It is most likely his real life relationship with the actress who plays Ava that got him these roles.
I still hold to the theory that the big bad in the second half will be Kayla looking for revenge for deserting her on that planet. She seems like she would be angry enough to be a threat, but also has a chance at redemption due to her relationship with Mick. Plus it might give a reason for Mick to appear only semiregularly next season.
Thanks again for mentioning my observations of a bloodthirsty Gideon. I am still hoping for a future payoff, but then again maybe the voiceover actress was getting bored and played it to strange effect. I still am looking forward to a season finale where they have to blow up the waverider to save themselves from Gideon’s actions. It would be a nice cliffhanger with where will they go from there.

I understand Ryan has a lot of anger towards the person who killed the only mother she knew and she would not be able to forgive, but it seems no matter what Alice does Ryan will hate her for it. I get that. I always found it strange how Mary has been a little more accepting of Alice even though she killed her mother and tried to kill her and left her with the choice to save herself. Alice has been doing a lot more good and less evil, and we understand more of why she is the way she is, but I still don’t feel like Ryan is going to forgive anytime soon. And I totally understand that, and am OK with it as long as she still does not keep working with Alice when she needs her and then gets rid of her when she doesn’t. That sends mixed messages.

I am actually OK with Jacob being written off the way he was. I felt like his story arc had played fully, and he finally came around to accepting his daughter was Batwoman, that the Crows were not all good, and that he needed to do the right thing. He seemed to make up with a lot of his family, and I liked the fact that this did not automatically wash away the crimes he was guilty of. I remember someone in this group saying the other week they were wondering if he was leaving the show. Now that I look back, I am so used to seeing the signs that someone is leaving the show that I should have known from his goodbye scene. It was like when I predicted many years ago who was going to die on NYPD Blue by the scenes that seemed more like the actor saying goodbye.
Dougray was great in this role, played it just right, and he will be missed, but I think it was the right time to go. Maybe some characters from Gotham PD can now shine or get their appearance? After all, we never knew what happened to Gordon. I would also love to see Renee Montoya on this show to add to the representation. Heck, a live action Bullock would make my day here.

Also, can we talk about seeing Penguin’s umbrella, Mad Hatter’s hat and Ivy’s well ivy floating to shore?!?! THis makes me very excited for next season as I have heard it will be a mix of new and old villains who will take these items on.

I also liked Luke’s debut as Batwing. It was a cool costume and I love the fact that his dad built it off drawings Luke had as a kid. It meant Luke was the world to Lucius, and even as he continued to help Batman, he kept his son in mind. If only he could see his costume come to life (unless Lucius secretly tried it out himself before he died).

It is like the question about Ultraviolet last week. I really do not know enough about his character to like him, let alone want to see if he is redeemed. I need more backstory to understand if he was one time good but forced bad, and he actually wants to redeem, or is he just in it to impress the girl. Right now it seems to be the latter.
I also like your comments about no WitSec for him. He is a snitch, shown in multiple papers as giving evidence but receives no protection. Are we looking at discrimination of metas, where they feel heck he is a meta he can handle himself if he gets into trouble.
ONe thing I would like to note though that has been bothering me: They made such a big deal of Frost making a sacrifice to go to jail for the rest of her life to protect other metas. They seemed to make it sound like she would never have a chance at parole. At her hearing they did bring up all the good she had done for the city in the years since but that did not seem to matter. And then it was only an episode or two later, a breakout occurs she helps capture some metas, suddenly she is released on good behavior. Now dont get me wrong, I love her character and was sad to not see her as often if she went to jail. However, if they wanted that episode to have as much impact and protect everyone it did, then she should still be in jail as they made it sound that serious. It really has no emotional impact anymore.


Hey don’t forget to get more Legends summary on my Legendary Island of Misfits here:


That could’ve been the case, but the synopsis for an upcoming episode mentions John making more moves regarding the Fountain, so it does look like we’ll actually get to see this journey. Having him go off like this must’ve been purely a creative decision

I’d be really surprised if they go this route. We already sort of saw it happen when John allowed Neron to possess him, and I can’t really see the benefit of making that sort of move

Why not? It’d have to be a different version of Swampy than who we saw on the DCU show, since he’s on Earth-19, but if DC/WB has no plans to continue that show or his character in any live-action capacity, I’d think it’d be fair game to make that happen. And it’d be so awesome to see! :st_swamp_thing:

Not to say this would be the case for everyone, but I figured Mary’s slow acceptance of Alice could be chalked up to the fact that they’re still technically family. Though Mary has every reason to hate Alice, they’re still technically stepsisters, and Ryan can’t say the same when it comes to Alice. Plus now that Kate and Jacob are out of Gotham, they’re they only members of the Kane family left in the city. It’s a twisted dynamic and 1 that I’m definitely expecting the show to continue developing in season 3

It’s not confirmed, but now that you mention it…

Yeah, it definitely makes sense that the villains of the week will be new people using classic villain tech. It seems like an interesting way to creatively blend the old and new, and I’m really excited that we only have to wait about 3 more months to see how that all plays out!

That wouldn’t be the case here since Mark’s not a meta. His tech definitely allows him to replicate Frost’s powers, but he wouldn’t even have access to that since it looks like it was being held at STAR

Oh I completely agree w/ you here. It makes absolutely no sense to bring such a dramatically huge status quo shift to Frost, or any character really, and then just completely reverse it so quickly. As much as I hated the decision to put her in jail for life in the 1st place, if you’re really gonna do it, you have to commit to it for at least a little while. They could’ve still given Frost screentime by having Caitlin visit her and showing her what she was doing in Iron Heights, but this just makes no sense. Between that and this forced love interest, it’s just really disheartening to see Frost being written this way after a really exciting start to the season (speedster Frost, the promise of being separate from Caitlin, etc.)


I didn’t realize Mark was not a meta. Did they show him using tech and I missed it?

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Also yay for the casting news you sent me on next season! I didn’t quite like how they handled her in the birds of prey movie and I loved her on the cartoon and comics do I want to see her done right.

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Yeah, in his 1st episode he talked about his obsession w/ the cold and how that led him to create the gloves that more or less replicate Frost’s powers

I did think that Rosie Perez did a good job at showing what an older Renee would look like as a grizzled cop, but I do agree that it’d be great to see her in a more fully comic-accurate portrayal. And since Ryan didn’t even get to have a single kiss this season, maybe she could even have a romance w/ Renee?

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Batwoman - I am okay with no more Jacob Kane. Restored Kate passed the keys to the kingdom to Ryan and is off on her own mission. To find Bruce. I look forward to his return.

Ryan’s forgiveness may or may not be influenced by Alice’s news that Ryan’s bio mom never died in childbirth. The problem is that Alice tells the truth sometimes.

Flash - Mark isn’t looking for redemption. He wants to be seen for who he is.

the godspeed civil war seems weird. it’s over the top on some levels, but I’ll watch to see it play out.

LoT - I am good if Constantine gets his magic back off screen. Seeing the same actor play a different character could mean something.


I know some of his dialogue was definitely reflective of this, but w/ all that he’s already done so recently, it still feels like the show’s trying to push a redemption through for him at this point. And even if it’s just a partial one, it still just feels like too much too soon

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I think they are pushing some sort of relationship more than redemption.


True, though that would inherently come w/ at least a partial redemption. Frost wouldn’t be willing to date Mark if she also couldn’t forgive him, and it’s just baffling that she seems to be so willing to forgive him this soon after everything

While Mark stuck around against the godspeeds, once he had his bracelets and a kiss, he’s back to his own agenda.

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I certainly hope so. He already overstayed his welcome, and I just hope this ends up being the worst of it

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