Arrowverse Couch Club Season Two, Week 2: Batwoman S2, E2

SPOILER ALERT!

With Ryan coming face-to-face with Alice and the threat of Safiyah looming, the new Batwoman’s journey is hardly slowing down. Though we’ll have to wait to see the issue of Ryan’s kryptonite poisoning be addressed, there was still plenty to unpack this week including more of Alice’s scheming, Batwoman re-introducing herself to Gotham, a huge swarm of bats carrying a deadly virus (topical?) and much more. With plenty of Bat-related action to go around, let’s dive right into everything here at the Arrowverse Couch Club.

  • We’ve seen Ryan be pretty quick to judge certain aspect of Kate, Batwoman’s operation and other elements connected to all of that. Given her significantly rougher upbringing compared to Kate, do you feel she’s justified in making such snap conclusions?
  • While a full redemption for Alice is basically off the table at this point, is there a possibility that she and Team Bat could be forced to temporarily work together against Safiyah at some point, or would Ryan and Mary’s vendettas against her be too much to overcome?
  • Luke and Mary will likely continue to play ignorant of Kate’s activities so as not to implicate themselves in any vigilante activity, but if the threats against Gotham grow big enough, could they eventually decide it’s worth the risk to share their resources with the Crows?
  • Jacob appeared to be pretty torn up upon watching the footage of him and the Crows opening fire on his own daughter, though it could also be a look of general anger over the footage being released to the public. Though he called Ryan an “imposter” when he first saw her, could his personal reckoning over Kate being Batwoman lead him to pursue a better relationship with Gotham’s newest hero?
1 Like

Even though she’s been proven wrong w/ a number of the early assumptions she’s made, I feel like it’s not only understandable given the circumstances, but could also end up being a good thing. The fact that she’s still in the earliest stages of her time as Batwoman means there’s gonna be plenty that she still has to learn. Also, considering how she keeps getting screwed over in her everyday life, whether it’s by constantly getting turned down for jobs or just generally being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that built-up frustration is inevitably gonna spill out in ways like this

It’s also possible to look at these kind of moments as chances for Team Bat to improve given Ryan’s unique perspective. She did specifically mention how a crimefighter who’s grown up around criminals can be useful in better fighting them, but it’s can also be helpful in everyday conversations. Sure, Luke or Mary would get rightly upset if Ryan makes a snap judgment about their operation that isn’t completely true, but some brutal honesty from her perspective could also force them to rethink some of the ways they go about fighting crime. While Kate, Mary and Luke have hardly had the easiest lives, it probably seems that way compared to someone like Ryan, who’s still living out of her van. The kind of bluntness that Ryan brings to the table might not seem nice, but it could be just what the team needs to help them move forward

Given how Safiyah is already posing a threat to Alice and will definitely do so for Team Bat soon, I’m inclined to think that a very reluctant and short truce could actually be in the future. Even though her attack w/ the bats was completely self-serving, we did see a glimpse of her ability to play nice(r) w/ the team, and if both sides get desperate enough, depending on what exactly Safiyah’s plans are, they could be left w/ no other choice. But like w/ Kate and the Crows during the season 1 finale, I’d fully expect such a team-up to end w/ at least 1 side completely betraying the other in an attempt to fully come out on top. Even if such an effort manages to be the deciding factor in Safiyah’s defeat, I highly doubt Ryan and Mary will ever be able to look past Alice’s culpability in their mothers’ deaths. And while Luke might not have as much of a personal grudge against her, he certainly has no love for her and I feel like he’d be unlikely to vouch for Alice in the aftermath of such a move, no matter how well it were to go

A big move like this would likely depend on whether or not the Crows change their official stance on Batwoman. For the moment, they’re still very much against her and anyone who aids her, so Luke and Mary will understandably want to maintain this story that they only just now found out about Kate’s vigilante activity. Should Jacob and the Crows switch gears and come out in support of Batwoman, however, or at least not actively pursue her, that could open the door for a change in that department

Of course Team Bat would still have plenty of understandable skepticism toward wanting to trust the Crows given their recent betrayal of Kate. I imagine the circumstances would have to be about as dire as possible in order to force them to work together, perhaps in a season finale type of episode. We still have to wait and see the scale of the threats that villains like Safiyah and Black Mask will pose this season. Something smaller and more personal would be unlikely to bring the 2 teams together, but something like a large-scale invasion of Gotham would probably make that kind of team-up at least a little more likely

It would certainly take a while, as I feel that this initial anger of Ryan taking over the Batwoman mantle from Kate will be hard to get over. But as he, along with the rest of the characters, come to know Ryan at least a little better, I think there’s a real chance that he’ll become more accepting. I particularly think that he’ll end up projecting a lot of his personal anger over the fact that he shot at his own daughter onto Ryan. While something like that certainly wouldn’t be fair, we could at least understand where it’d be coming from and could still be worked through. This could end up being an effective character arc for Jacob this season. In working through the stages of grief over losing Kate and having to deal w/ her replacement, he could end up legitimately growing when it comes to his attitude on vigilantes like Batwoman. This could be the outlet he needs to recognize the heroic work that she does, even if he still remains skeptical to a degree

1 Like

I just watched the first two episodes and I enjoyed them both. I was very curious how they were going to write off Kate and I like the way they’re going.

I think so. I always enjoy a newbie to the Bat-team being like, “Hey, guns are cool.” or “I’m going to kill this person.” Because it highlights how almost brainwashed the Batfam is. (I have no issue with it, but it’s true) Bruce’s ideals are forced on every member of the Batfam and I enjoy a different view, sometimes. I don’t think Ryan should kill Alice, but still. And because of that different upbringing these are the types of views she brings to the table.

Oh, most definitely. It’ll be fun to see. Ryan, Mary and Alice won’t be able to let go of their feelings and there is going to be a lot of double crossing.

I don’t think so. Jacob wasn’t quiet about how upset he was over it all. To find out his other daughter was also involved would be a lot for him. And Luke and Mary don’t really care for the Crows after last season. Maybe something with Sophie and Julia if they get desperate, but I don’t see they going to Jacob or the Crows as a whole.

I also don’t think so here. Now he know he has no ties to Batwoman. He has seen that title kill his daughter. I think he is going to do everything he can to stop Batwoman. Maybe not trying to kill her, but stop her vigilante activities.

Also, Julia. Anyone else think she is hiding a lot more than she is saying? I know this is carry over from last season. (And I missed last week, I don’t know if this was discussed already.) But I like her character and I’m interested to see what side she is actually on. I know she wanted to help Kate but now with the switch it’ll be interesting to see how she continues.

2 Likes

Not just for the sake of her better keeping her humanity intact, but also because we don’t want to see the best character get killed off

I’m imagining a scenario where the second Safiyah goes down, Alice and Ryan immediately pull their weapons on each other

That does seem like a more likely scenario. They obviously trust Julia completely, and while Sophie might be more of an unknown in terms of her reaction to finding out that Kate was Batwoman, she still seems more likely to come around to Team Bat’s side than Jacob. Those 2 would give them pretty good access to the Crows’ resources w/out the risk of having to enact a full truce

I’m sure she knows more about Safiyah, but that hasn’t quite come up yet. I imagine she’ll be more forthcoming w/ details once Safiyah poses a more relevant, direct threat to Gotham and Team Bat needs to start acting against her. I feel like having another thread where Julia’s hiding something would feel redundant, so I can’t say I think they’re gonna go down this road again

I will be honest that I got a little confused with the whole plan to draw Safiyah out and had to read a summary online to understand. I saw Mouse’s dead body (creepy) and bats then having a desert rose. Once I realized it was the same poison that killed Mary’s mom, I liked the tie in but it seemed very convoluted plan to work.
I am in agreement that Crows and Jacob will not work directly with BatFam but I do think they could have a link in Sophie sorta like Commissioner Gordon and Batman. Speaking of which did the show ever address if there was a Gordon in this world? Batman was there so I just figured he was too.
I still say Ryan brings fresh air to the character and although she has had a tough life she still seems to bring fun to Batwoman. I think it’s good for her to call out the team as you need the new perspective and not just the party line.
I agree the team will team with Alice over Safiyah but there will be betrayal once issue is resolved. I can’t wait to meet Safiyah as I am not familiar with the character in comics but seems to me like a Ra’s Al Ghul level villain with global ambitions and resources.
Aldo I saw you mention Black Mask! I did not hear that he would join but that’s cool! Part of me thinks since it is a mask maybe it would be cool for it to be a female Black Mask .

1 Like

I don’t think they’ve ever mentioned him specifically. If he did exist pre-Crisis, he wasn’t commissioner, but who knows how much that’s changed post-Crisis, if at all. There should still be an Oracle, but it’s not even confirmed if that’s Babs or not

Definitely agree there. I almost hope she doesn’t end up going against Alice too much since that (understandably) brings out her darker side. Bringing the same kind of energy to fights as she had when she first popped in and said “Boo!” would be a lot of fun

I would say that’s still a possibility since Dries’ comments on Black Mask didn’t indicate a male or female character specifically. I’m still inclined to think they’ll go w/ the usual male version of Sionis, perhaps since having another sadistic crime boss could feel a bit too similar to Alice, but until we get specific confirmation, I’m definitely open to the possibility of a change like that

1 Like

Almost forgot!!

We’ve seen Ryan be pretty quick to judge certain aspect of Kate, Batwoman’s operation and other elements connected to all of that. Given her significantly rougher upbringing compared to Kate, do you feel she’s justified in making such snap conclusions?
It’s justified in the sense that she’s the noob (n00b?) and fresh eyes are usually for the good. but the K-poisoning remains unaddressed.

While a full redemption for Alice is basically off the table at this point, is there a possibility that she and Team Bat could be forced to temporarily work together against Safiyah at some point, or would Ryan and Mary’s vendettas against her be too much to overcome?
An Alice-teamBat team up is more likely than with the Crows. what would be good is Ryan and/or Mary agreeing too quickly so they can play out their own vendettas and how close they might even come to exacting their revenge.

Luke and Mary will likely continue to play ignorant of Kate’s activities so as not to implicate themselves in any vigilante activity, but if the threats against Gotham grow big enough, could they eventually decide it’s worth the risk to share their resources with the Crows?
So, I agree with the rest of y’all, not the Crows as a whole, but Julia and/or Sophie would be more likely. Depending on things play out, we’d likely get a female police commissioner or Lead Crow and the alliance a la Gordon and Batman.

Jacob appeared to be pretty torn up upon watching the footage of him and the Crows opening fire on his own daughter, though it could also be a look of general anger over the footage being released to the public. Though he called Ryan an “imposter” when he first saw her, could his personal reckoning over Kate being Batwoman lead him to pursue a better relationship with Gotham’s newest hero?
Some sort of truce is not out of the question, but ultimately I would suspect Jacob to betray Batwoman. I like the anti-vigilante stance, but more as a political undertone and it is not as evident as of yet.

The brainwashing that is ‘Bats do not kill’ is the cost of wearing the symbol. Bruce insistence on it for himself is more to keep himself in check: he does not kill because it is hard, not because it is easy. Or so sayeth my head canon. For the rest of the BatFamily, my head canon presumes it’s about protecting them.

1 Like

Luke would definitely be openly reluctant to call a truce w/ Alice, but I could also see this happening w/ 1 or both of the other 2. Of course it’d probably also make Alice even more suspicious of them, which could make a potential truce less effective

It definitely remains an interesting stance when you think about how it applies to other members of the Batfamily. Even though Kate technically broke that rule last season, it was out of costume, so you can still technically say that Batwoman never killed anyone. At this point, Luke and Mary seem to be more concerned w/ public perception over the legacy of the Bat as opposed to whatever personal toll Ryan would put on herself by becoming a murderer. And even though they’ll continue to discourage her from going down that path, they also have to realize that there’s only so much they can do to stop her from making that decision. Unless Luke has something in the Batsuit that could knock Ryan unconscious (which I certainly wouldn’t rule out), they could be powerless to stop her if she decides to take a life out in the field

True, but the life taken would have shaped how Kate as Batwoman would fight crime and such. Ryan might find herself at the brink and will hopefully refrain, using the usual BatCode: killing them makes me no better than them.

1 Like

One of the many frustrating things about Ruby leaving is that we won’t get to see the long-term impact of that decision on Kate’s life in and out of the suit. I’m sure Ryan will go through something similar where she’ll have a real chance to kill Alice (or someone else), though when that comes, I hope they’ll find a more creative reason than “it’ll make me no better than who I’m fighting.” It’s obviously not wrong, but it is pretty cliched at this point

It is cliche, but it is the classic trope of being a Bat. Let’s see how it plays out.

I don’t like that we won’t see the consequences of that kill by Kate either.

What I really need is more Bruce. Bruce and Clark would also be a nice bonus.

1 Like

A Warren Christie appearance on Superman & Lois could be really awesome, even if it’s just a flashback

1 Like

Totally.

1 Like

Hmmm this is an interesting question. Hadn’t really thought about it. I liked her questioning Mary about her billionaire status yet she’s only get 12.50 an hour. While she hasn’t had an easy life she is a little quick to judge Mary and Luke. You’d think with getting caught and getting screwed over she’d be less quick to judge someone else. Now I’m going to watch these judgements more closely over the next couple episodes.

Well this is a TV show so I’m sure at some point Mary and Alice will have to work together at some point. I mean could kind of say they already did when Alice gave her the blood. Speaking of the blood, if it’s a cure all does it also stop aging? To answer the question more fully Ryan or Mary at this point are not at a point where they would consider a “team-up”. Nothing like when flash teamed up with captain cold or arrow teamed up with slade.

Aren’t the threats in Gotham anyways big? lol. Anyways, I see them sharing their resources with Sophie, but the crows as a whole sharing with the bat team, I don’t see that at all. When this show started I was surprised the GCPD was basically not involved at all and the only “authority” type was the Crows. The only crows we know are Kane, Sophie, and Julia? (Is she a crow now?)

I thought this was kind of weird. His character kind of reminds me of Quentin from arrow. Losing one daughter, then having them both, then losing one again. I mean different circumstances but similar daughter troubles. Quentin hated the hood but when it was his daughter being a vigilante he didn’t hunt her down. Now with Kane he didn’t want batwoman around but once he finds out it was his daughter he ONLY wants it to be her? A very conflicted man is what I see. I hope he pulls through and becomes a great character like Quentin came to be.

1 Like