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I’ll admit, you’re not the first person I’ve heard say this, but I honestly don’t get where that’s coming from. The most I heard from the interviews was how he was going to concentrate on the contradiction of being a warrior for peace. That isn’t something that usually gets explored about Diana, but that’s where I thought the run would deliver something fresh.

As for how he characterizes Diana, I’m also confused as to what people think King has gotten wrong. Is it just the dialogue? I do think that is a stylistic choice that goes back to the dialectical combat and formality that King is building within Amazonian culture. Was it necessarily there before? No, but I’d ask if King or any other writer really is bound by that and what runs they would be bound to for that since I think we may all have different opinions there.

If you were to elaborate more on what you think King doesn’t get or has gotten wrong about Diana, maybe I’d see your point. Right now, I’m honestly confused about what specifically people are reacting to in this regard.

I do flat-out disagree with this, though:

I think King is focused on his greater themes, yes, but I would disagree with the idea that he hasn’t spent time on characterization. We’ve actually spent A LOT of time on Diana’s character. Issue #2 focused on how her past shaped her, issue #4 showed what lengths she goes to help someone in need despite what’s happening in her own sphere, and issue #5 focused primarily on her closest relationships. I would argue it’s actually been more about characterization than plot since the stories have been set up to give you a clear picture of who Diana is going into this conflict. Maybe there’s a debate to be had about that characterization, but I do believe King has spent an awful lot of story space on it.

I’m also not sure where exactly this is coming from. Is it because of the decision to focus on Diana as a warrior? All I can say is that I haven’t gotten the feeling that King is trying to make Diana “cool” or that he didn’t believe she was cool in the first place. I never had the feeling that he’s trying to “fix” her. I think the overall theme with Diana is that she’s a fighter from a culture of fighters, but their main goal is peace. There’s a tension between the idea of using violence to bring about peace and that’s a major theme (not the only theme) that King is focusing on. I think that comes more from King’s personal background and experiences working with the CIA than it is about wanting to make WW look cool. Maybe I’m misreading that assessment, though. I do remember him saying something to the tune of how that hasn’t been explored much with her in the past, but I don’t think he meant that as a condemnation of the writers or stories that came before him as much as it was his assessment about why his run would be something new (which is debatable).

I do believe, and not just from this debate but others I’ve had on these boards, that fans often come in with certain expectations about beats that need to be hit with certain characters. However, it’s not clear to me what those beats are supposed to be with Diana from this perspective or which ones that King is supposedly missing. It’s something that I’m not inherently seeing, so it’s tough for me to wrap my head around the argument or point of view as much as I do appreciate your willingness to be open with your opinion. If that’s something you could narrow down for me, we still may not agree, but I might be able to grasp the point of view a bit better.

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This interview is what made me worried about how he’d handle Wonder Woman.

There’s so much more to Golden Age Wonder Woman than Marston’s predilection for bondage. Plus, even across all the eras, Wonder Woman’s origin is consistent enough throughout the main DC universes. There are basic beats that I think he’s missing here. And if Wonder Woman’s Golden Age roots aren’t his cup of tea, he could have looked to another era. And compared to other heroes, I don’t think the Wonder Woman mythos are that convoluted. Nothing too difficult to handle in a new run, IMO.

And his belief in the mythos being convoluted carries over into the run too, where instead of continuing where the Rebirth era left off, he kind of just amalgamates everything with the meta-narrative of different Wonder Woman eras being different accounts of her history. I understand the appeal of that but I didn’t care for it. But then again, the Rebirth era is one of my absolute favorite eras of Wonder Woman comics, so a degree of this is my bias speaking.

The most succinct way I could put it is that it feels like there’s a large degree of warmth and wholesomeness that’s just missing now. Wonder Woman feels more “aloof warrior” when she ought to be kind and personable to the core and a reluctant fighter, when push comes to shove. That’s partially where my feeling of “trying to make Wonder Woman cool” comes from. To use an adaptation as an example of what I’m talking about, Wonder Woman even kept her personable and wholesome traits in BvS when she was mostly there for fight scenes.

My frame of reference for Wonder Woman is that she’s always simultaneously a larger-than-life warrior-goddess who can win basically any fight but, more prominently, is also the most sincere, wholesome, and approachable member of the Justice League. I’m not saying King’s writing is missing this, but I just personally don’t see and feel it.

I also don’t feel any kind of spark between Wonder Woman and Steve when they speak to each other. I understand that the circumstances are partially to blame for this (they’re now enemies as far as the US government is concerned) but it reads like they were never in love in the first place. And for me, one of my favorite aspects of Rebirth is that it brought back the WW/Steve romance for the first time in decades.

And one of my few criticisms of Wonder Woman comics from post-Crisis to Rebirth is the lack of a Wonder Woman/Steve Trevor romance. It’s one of the best pairings in the superhero genre, in my opinion. It feels like a classic Greek mythology romance between and goddess and a mortal while also hitting vaguely similar notes to old school Bogart/Bacall Hollywood romances. I’m not necessarily opposed to Wonder Woman being paired with Batman or Superman, but they just don’t compare to the classic Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor relationship that we finally got back in Rebirth. And now it feels like they’re drifting apart again.

I’m not suggesting that King is shirking characterization in favor of plot writing. A better way of putting it is that it feels like it’s characterization in the service of plot, which I don’t care for. I like to go for stories that keep the plot relatively simple so that the characterization leads the narrative, rather than developing the characters to serve the narrative, if that makes sense.

Fully agreed! And I still can’t say I dislike this current run. I’ve read genuinely bad Wonder Woman comics (or rather Wonder Woman written badly in non-Wonder Woman comics) and this is a far cry from that. What I can say is that it doesn’t quite appeal to me and my preferences and sensibilities as a Wonder Woman reader, and it certainly feels like a step down from the Rebirth era. But I don’t want to frame anything I’m saying as objective nor do I want to ruin anyone’s enjoyment of the current run.

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Okay, I think I’m seeing more of it now. I’ll start by saying that I love Golden Age Wonder Woman and I love Marston’s work. It’s so unique and not just for the time period. I read a ton of Golden Age comics and Marston’s WW is my favorite run from that era, without a doubt. I hands down agree with this:

To be fair, though, King does say that: “Some of that agenda was absolutely wonderful.” So, there’s a chance I disagree with his assessment about Marston’s work, but there is also a chance that King does get it but is perhaps uncomfortable with some of the more… kinky origins of them (which were there, I’m not going to pretend they weren’t). Regardless, as much as I love Marston and I do have strong feelings regarding his work and overall vision for Wonder Woman, I wouldn’t say that not seeing Marston’s work in the exact same light is an actual deal breaker. The Marston material is so unique that it’s actually rare to find someone who “gets” it. I would love to have an in-depth conversation with King about that subject, but I’m not going to judge his run based off of his feelings about it. I will say that, as much as I have enjoyed King’s run, I have noticed the lack of Marston’s influence, for what it’s worth.

Eh… I see where King is coming from there, but I don’t think that’s specifically a WW problem so much as it is a wider DC problem. There have been so many revamps and timeline jumps and origin stories that it is difficult to know which ones to go with. Specifically, the end of New 52 to Rebirth was not clean. Rebirth brought back a lot of Post-Crisis continuity, not all of it. New 52 ended but not all of its continuity was erased. And, when it comes to Diana, her first origin was linked to WWII in a way that Bats and Supes were not. Because of that, she’s gone through the most drastic origin changes over time. I get where he’s coming from here because it’s not really all that simple. Especially since:

Everyone has their favorite runs and eras, right? Everyone has their own bias based on what they vibe with. Sadly, this usually means that not all versions of origins or stories from different runs can exist at once. It creates winners and losers. If someone uses Rebirth you celebrate, but maybe other fans get annoyed because their favorites get left out.

That’s why I liked this:

It does cut through the complexity of finding out exactly what is canon right now and allows everyone to fill in the blanks with what they want. So, I got why he did it and thought it was a clever move.

I think we’re probably going to have to agree to disagree on the following:

I think I see all that in King’s Wonder Woman. Especially in issue #4, I felt her warmth and wholesomeness extremely present. I also don’t think she’s been more eager to rush into a fight than she usually is. She’s definitely spent a lot of time hearing both Steve and Steel out before it comes to blows. But, as always, she’s not afraid to end a fight if it starts. As for the aloofness, I think it does go back to how formal King has made her speech patterns. That said, it’s not wildly different than speech patterns I’m used to from her. When I hear “aloof warrior,” I think like Zealot from the WildCATS and King’s Diana has been a far cry from that.

So, yeah, we’ll have to agree to disagree here:

Because I’d admit that Diana’s characterization is working with the plot. However, she still seems to be the same Diana to me. Her heart, her sense of fairness, her fierceness, her defiance are all still there to me. We may just be seeing the same things differently.

Finally, and I know this is going to get me some heat…

I don’t really care about Steve Trevor. I know! I’m sorry! But, outside the movies, I never really found their romance to be all that interesting. I really liked it in the movies, but… never got it from the comics. I thought it was interesting that his existence gender-flipped the damsel-in-distress trope back in the old days. But, now that stuff is gone and… I just don’t feel it with their romance. It’s just not something I read WW stories for, so its absence doesn’t affect the way I feel about a story. I’m not much of a shipper in general. I have my ships but… they’re like a minor concern to me. I don’t get too bent out of shape if they’re not there.

That said, for what it’s worth, if this story goes in the direction that I think it’s going then I feel pretty sure that Diana and Steve will get their moments soon enough. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling…

Fair enough and I’m not trying to change the way anyone feels about anything because… that’s tough to do. But, I do think these conversations are worth having because these characters are complex with a deep history. I like playing these debates out just so we all get a full idea about where these feelings and opinions come from. Thanks for engaging!

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Same! And I also should have specified that there’s more to Marston’s run of Golden Age Wonder Woman than Marston’s predilection for bondage. :sweat_smile:

For sure! The interview only made me cautious about the King run. I was still determined to read it for myself before deciding if I liked it or not.

It’s strange. I generally assume that Wonder Woman has the clay origin but I wish King didn’t backtrack on the Zeus parentage origin. But that’s the least of my complaints.

Sidenote: I feel like I’m one of the few who liked Wonder Woman 1984 (and not just liked, I adore it), but I also wish we got a World War II movie in the DCEU. You obviously can’t have a story about a morally gray war when one side has nazis on it so I understand and loved that they went with World War I in the first movie. But I still wanted to see two hours of the DCEU’s Wonder Woman beating up nazis like the Golden Age version :joy:

Yup. Totally agreed!

It is clever to be sure! I think I’m just played out on metafiction at this point :sweat_smile:

Totally fair points!

Nothing to apologize for! And I say this as one of the biggest Wonder Woman/Steve shippers ever :rofl:

Here’s hoping!

Yeah! And I never felt you were, I was just speaking for myself. I get very opinionated sometimes and I always want to clarify that my opinions are only opinions. That said, I do love comparing notes like this! :grin:

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:laughing: Yup…

I honestly don’t read the interviews. I just don’t take the time for it, and I’d rather just let the work speak for itself. I’m glad you decided to give it a shot in spite of that!

I mean, either one could be true, right? I kind of prefer the daughter of Zeus origin, myself. Luckily, for these things, there’s always Hypertime which is the create-your-own canon mechanism for DC Comics. I use it to head-canon things I like in, and things I don’t like out.

I’m willing to admit that it’s an extremely flawed movie and not as good as the first. But… I straight up bawled my eyes out when she took off flying after Steve disappeared. That’s right, I was a grown man sitting alone during pandemic lockdown who was crying his eyes out over a flying woman in a tiara. I loved that movie…

Total agreement. As nice as it would’ve been to see Diana punch Nazis and to keep the comic accuracy intact, I can’t see it being any other war at this point other than WW I. The way Diana had to accept humanity’s flaws and still find it in herself to save them anyway… just perfect. Still my favorite DCEU movie by a country mile.

It’s maybe my favorite thing. I will never tire of it :laughing:

Oh, I just know it’s a popular ship around these parts so felt like it was good to get those apologies in just in case… :laughing:

I can relate! I’m really opinionated… sometimes to my detriment! :laughing: But sometimes it’s a good talk like now.

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It grew on me. Took a long time to get used to but now I slightly prefer it, even if the clay origin is equally fitting.

I definitely prefer the first but…yeah. It got me good in that moment too. There are a lot of details, big and small, that I’d have changed (there were better approaches to bringing Steve back while making it a bad thing that you as the viewer don’t like) and there are a ton of details, big and small, that made me adore it.

Saaame! :smile:

You bet! :grin:

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Glad to see the love for Golden Age here! The stories are fun and I love the art.

As far as Steve Trevor, he is the only one for Diana, but only in the Golden and Silver Age. They get married pre-crisis and no one can ever take that away. It feels like a complete story to me.

Modern Diana and Steve? Not the same. It almost feels like Diana is never going to have a real love interest in the comics again, but we’ll see.

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Oh man, they are around and they can be insane. Some years back, when he was writing Batman and Heroes In Crisis, when he didn’t have Batman and Catwoman go through their wedding and Wally was revealed to be the killer in that story, King received so many death threats he had to have armed guards with him at cons.

I mean, sending death threats to anyone about anything is insane enough, but what made it crazier was them doing that to someone whose previous occupation before writing was a spy for the CIA. I wouldn’t mess with that, no way no how. :rofl:

I mean, that can be there, but I think King has also said the simple answer in that he really liked Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman and was trying to emulate that sort of accented speech into her. I suppose it’s either that or do a Claremont-esque phonicising of their speech, which…has it’s pros and cons.

Eh…we’ve had a whole issue devoted to her showing kindness to a dying child, and pretty much every fight she’s had in this book has come after she asks for her opponent to stand down and then having to defend herself.

I would say that King’s mission statement to “make Wonder Woman cool” comes more from the way that King paces and constructs the book more than anything.

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And speaking of Wonder Woman and her love interests, how about a return of the Monster? Or Manno the Mer-Man? :rofl:

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I would say the one major aspect of King’s WW run that I’m still not sold on is Trinity AKA Diana’s daughter. Not that she is bad but I’m still waiting for the moment that justifies her creation

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As a young adult? Sure – I could see something where she’s brought in as maybe an alternate universe daughter or something that could be interesting, but only if the other Wonder Girls have their own things.

Elizabeth as a kid? She is an adorable, precious little monster who’s existence was justified ten-fold in those back-ups.

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Young Trinity is admittedly cute

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Yeah… no disrespect to Claremont because he did a lot to both advance the writing style of comics in the 80’s and bring more diversity to the casts. But… it’s safe to say that his method of utilizing diversity has become a thing of the past. I’m not exactly sure if that’s the way King is going about it, but, if it is, it certainly isn’t at Claremont level.

Modern Steve hasn’t really found his footing. I’d love to see from him what @WWofThemyscira described:

But… I don’t feel like I’ve seen that yet, and that goes back to pre-King material.

That said…

There have definitely been many, many worse love interests for Diana than modern Steve Trevor…

coughtheSupermanromancewasbetterthanpeoplegiveitcreditforbeingcough

Woof, gotta get that cough checked out someday…

This is almost certainly coming. I think many of the themes are eventually going to rest on what happens with Trinity.

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I’m still waiting for Artemis or Yara or some other Amazon to embrace Mary Marvel and give their equivalent of the Diaz from Brooklyn 99 quote:

“I’ve only had Mary for a day and a half, but if anything happened to her, I would kill everyone in this room and then myself”

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Totally agree with you here.

I thought Rebirth handled modern Diana and Steve perfectly! Especially in the opening Rucka run! :grin:

That’s horrible but depressingly unsurprising.

Yeah, that’s ill-advised to say the least. :rofl:

Being a fan of DCEU Wonder Woman is a good sign because she was an amalgamation of many of the best comic versions. For me, the disconnect comes less from the diction of her dialogue and more from the personality it conveys. Maybe it’ll just take some time to get used to it but I see the post-Crisis and Rebirth (and to a kind of limited degree New 52) eras in Gadot’s iteration.

I will say that felt like pure, authentic Wonder Woman on a conceptual level.

I was interested in seeing a new iteration of Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor’s daughter but I checked out when it was revealed that her parentage would be a mystery. Been through that before with the Star Wars sequels and…no thanks. Not doing that nonsense again. :rofl:

It’s less about Diana and Steve feeling like Bacall/Bogart characters and more of the old adventure film stylings of their stories and romance.

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I heard that Silver Swan apparently showed up in a Tom King WW issue. Can anyone confirm if thats true?

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She did, among many other WW villains.

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I wrote a thing in case anyonr is interested. Maybe @SteveTrevor2.0 and @WWofThemyscira might find it interesting

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Why, yes. Yes, I am interested. :grin: :00_wonder_woman_stars:

It was a fun read and I replied in the thread.

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